Thank you for all your research…..this gets more interesting. I have not seen the 1921 census as yet. In every census I have seen from 1871, except 1881 where ditto marks have been written below her husband’s place of birth, Foleshill, she names Kenilworth as her place of birth….so that is in 1891, 1901, and 1911. The reason I opted for the Birmingham baptism of 21st April, with a birthdate of 31st March 1845 is that this is her date of birth given in the Cantrill family Bible. I had seen the Aston Hannah Smith, but had seen from records that her father was a canal lock-keeper. It is amazing that the mother’s maiden name was Wilkinson and that there had been a marriage of a William Smith and Sarah Wilkinson in Kenilworth. This is all very confusing!
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Smith William, sawyer, Upper Marshall Street 1851 census
- Thread starter Brotog
- Start date
MWS
from Bham
That's a bit of a hiccup.
MWS
from Bham
I think the William Smith who married Ann Bradburn and the William Smith that married Esther Oliver are the same person.
In 1861 (as shown) William is listed as a Sawyer but in 1871 and 1891 he is listed as a Chemical Labourer.
And it seems a little more likely that he is the father of the Hannah that married Alfred Cantrill.
Possibly a coincidence but with William on the 1871 is a Caroline Taylor (listed as cousin) and one of the witnesses when Hannah marries is a Mary Ann Taylor. Sadly Taylor is another common name.
Easiest thing to do would probably get the birth certificate for the Hannah with mmn Wilkinson to see if the details match. Available as a digital download.
Thank you so much for all your trouble! I had noticed that this William Smith had become a Chemical Labourer by 1871, living with Esther in Floodgate Street, but I had missed the possible connection between the cousin, Caroline Taylor and the Mary Ann Taylor witness on the marriage certificate. You are right, that could possibly prove to be very significant! What still troubles me is that I cannot find, as yet, a census entrant for a 5-6 year old Hannah on the 1851 census anywhere in Warwickshire that fits with the facts I have. I will try to find her GRO birth registration.
Thank you again!
Thank you again!
MWS
from Bham
In 1851 I think Hannah is listed as Hanah with William and Ann (Bradburn) in Aston. This time William is listed as a Pearl Maker and his birthplace (as previously mentioned) is listed/transcribed as Fazeley, Warwickshire. Could easily be a mishearing of Haseley by the census taker.
MWS
from Bham
There's now nothing in that marriage that makes is impossible to be relevant.
Witnesses are Ann's brother and sister in law. His birthplace in 1851 is listed as Walsall, close enough to Ann Smith.
I'd say that says Haseley rather than Fazeley for William.
just to cut in folks..i asked carl chinn if he had any photos of upper marshall/marshall st in his collection and he kindly sent me this link to what he has..think most of the marshall st end but its close enough and i think in one of them i can make out a school...link below courtesy of carl chinn
lyn
www.dropbox.com
lyn
Dropbox
www.dropbox.com
MWS
from Bham
On the 1861 census, as mentioned, Alfred Cantrill was in Bham listed as a Draper's Porter on High St.
There is a Hannah Smith of the correct age listed as a Housemaid of Emily Bartlett, an Eating House Keeper on Union Street.
Assuming it is the right Hannah it would be nice to think that one day Alfred went to eat at Emily Bartlett's Eating House and whilst there met Hannah.
Alternatively Hannah may have been sent to the drapers by Emily for some reason and whilst there met Alfred.
There is a Hannah Smith of the correct age listed as a Housemaid of Emily Bartlett, an Eating House Keeper on Union Street.
Assuming it is the right Hannah it would be nice to think that one day Alfred went to eat at Emily Bartlett's Eating House and whilst there met Hannah.
Alternatively Hannah may have been sent to the drapers by Emily for some reason and whilst there met Alfred.
Thank you again for helping out! This would seem to be right except for the place of birth of Hannah….I suppose mistakes were often made when answering the enumerator on the doorstep?
absolutely brotog..enumerator often wrote down surnames and where born as it sounded to him..very often the householders could not even read or write either...also white lies were told when giving info such as if they were married or not and how many years married just to save face back in those days..i found this out with my own gt grandparents who on the 1911 had 5 children and put down married 10 years but i then found out that they actually married in 1910 so very often it does pay to sometimes think outside the box
lyn
MWS
from Bham
The biggest sticking point is Hannah's birthplace and the question is was she really born in Kenilworth?
There is only one birth reg. for a Hannah Smith in the Warwick district (inc. Kenilworth) in the right time frame and we know it wasn't her, though not all births were registered. The only Hannah Smith on the 1851 or 1861 census of the correct age with birthplace Kenilworth also wasn't her. Only after she was married can she be found with a birthplace listed as Kenilworth and then not always.
We do have the baptism in Bham with a dob that matches that given in the previously mentioned family bible. We have a birthplace listed for (definitely) her as Bham on the 1921 census and we have a birthplace listed for (possibly) her as Bham on the 1861 census in Union St.
Thank you so much for your comments which have really helped me realise why I may have had so much trouble finding Hannah. I have met with false census information before, but for some reason couldn’t accept that Kenilworth would be wrong as it was repeated so often. It could be that she just didn’t know.
Thanks so much for continuing to provide help and advice. You have really helped me to start realising why I have had so much trouble tracking her down with any certainty. I could not understand why my mother’s grandmother (who my late mother remembered well!) has given me more problems than any other individual in my tree. I have not been able to see the 1921 census,..so I gather from your comment that she states ‘Birmingham’?
happy to help...another thing which is worth bearing in mind is that when someone is born in say coventry but then at a very young age moved with parents to say birmingham the child will very often grow up assuming that they were born in birmingham because that is all they remember and state this on subsequent census years..i have seen this many times...it all adds to the thrill of chase but can make it very frustrating for us
lyn
Thank you so much for this! This gives me so much information about names I thought I knew so much about! I was not aware that after Alfred, Hannah’s husband, had died in March 1921that she had gone to live with her youngest son and his family. The birthplace Hannah gives in Birmingham is also the final clue that has decided me once and for all that Kenilworth was a mis-direction. It appears that her mother and father may have been married in Kenilworth in 1833, hence the confusion. I can’t tell you how grateful I am for this.
Thank you again! Your comments, once again, have helped convince me that I have put too much faith in what was told to the enumerator.happy to help...another thing which is worth bearing in mind is that when someone is born in say coventry but then at a very young age moved with parents to say birmingham the child will very often grow up assuming that they were born in birmingham because that is all they remember and state this on subsequent census years..i have seen this many times...it all adds to the thrill of chase but can make it very frustrating for us
lyn
MWS
from Bham
And looking at it it just doesn't say Birmingham, it says Borsley, Birmingham which has to be Bordesley. And Adderley Street, listed on Hannah's baptism, is in Bordesley.