The English Language.

[MartinS]

Talking of words in the English language, in schools now they use the words Sulfur, sulfuric acid, in my day it was Sulphur but it was changed in 1971 by the International Union of Pure and Applied Chemistry,although in USA it had always been spelt as Sulfur

To change Sulphuric, is truly annoying after the fact! Nobody consulted with me, whether it was okay to change the spelling!

The word "tyre", is probably the one word that I stopped spelling as I always had, almost the day after I immigrated to Canada in 1974. However, I caught myself using the U.K. spelling, when I wrote the word on the board in class, just a couple of years ago.

There are many other instances, where I reluctantly have to adjust the grammar, punctuation and spelling to suit the targeted audience, which in my situation can often be destined for USA. So, words such as maximise, surprise and more, change to maximize, surprize etc.

Not only is it spelling, but there are numerous differentiations in uses of grammar and applying punctuation marks.
e.g. The following quotations for U.S.A and U.K. might read:

He said, "The written English language is so challenging to master." (USA)

He said, "The written English language is so challenging to master". (UK)

Typically, for quotations in USA, the period is before the quotation marks, while in UK, it is after.

I am pretty sure that I can "muck it up" myself, without too much help these days. I will readily confess to getting a little sloppy with age and the variations in use of the written word.

One technical forum that I have been a member of since the '90s, often has a couple of "Grammar Nazis" who regularly "strut their stuff". They might typically comment about how a particular post was formatted, with poor use of capitalisation, grammar and punctuation, run on sentences and more.

Without fail, such rants will frequently demonstrate shortcomings in ability of the responders, to get it right themselves, with glaring errors!

The end result, is that the original poster may decide to discontinue any participation, while there may have been some very useful information to share.

As such, it is often well worth looking beyond a few typos or grammatical errors.

So, I apologise in advance for any forthcoming errors of my own, as "juggling" the written English language to various audiences can result in a few errors.

The human brain is quite capable of some truly amazing reading capabilities.

If Yuo’re Albe To Raed Tihs, You Might Have Typoglycemia

Did you ever receive that viral word-scrambled email some time between 2003 and now? If you think you can read any word jumble, read this article first.

www.dictionary.com

 

[Stokkie]

I watched an episode of MASH last night. ( Mobile Army Surgical Hospital ) Very popular in the 70`s & still just as funny today. Colonel Blake accused someone of trying to gaslight him, so i guess the term gaslight has been around for some time.

Good spot! I lifted this from Wikipedia -as the psychological usage really takes off in 2010s and crosses the pond as they say: Hoberman, J (21 August 2019). "Why 'Gaslight' Hasn't Lost Its Glow". The New York Times. The verb “to gaslight,” voted by the American Dialect Society in 2016 as the word most useful/likely to succeed, and defined as “to psychologically manipulate a person into questioning their own sanity,”

 

[Brummie a long time ago]

Not only is it spelling, but there are numerous differentiations in uses of grammar and applying punctuation marks.

One day to day thing that regularly catches me over here is the interchange of full stop (point) and comma (virgule) in writing numbers.
£ 123,456.78
€ 123.456,78

The human brain is quite capable of some truly amazing reading capabilities.

And listening. My French accent would be charitably described as 'West Midlands'. This caused me some embarrassment until I realised how bad non native English could be and I would still understand it.

One of the fascinating things I find about language, English and others, is the untranslatable parts. That tends to define the country for me. Not the slang, or the idiom, there are generally equivalents, but expressions of e.g. emotion.

Andrew.

 

[Stokkie]

Some American usages are being adopted in the Midlands, birthed (as a verb) as in she birthed her baby. And gifted as in I was gifted a pair of socks. Both are used by my young adult children. The language processes here are very familiar so they may become the usual form. Hardly anyone says thrice, twice is being replaced by two times.

Some nations adopted wholesale spelling or alphabet reform. Turkey, Russia after the Revolution, the French Revolution, and more modestly German reduced umlauts and use of the strong s. ß
Spelling reform has been strongly resisted in the UK.

 

[Stokkie]

One day to day thing that regularly catches me over here is the interchange of full stop (point) and comma (virgule) in writing numbers.
£ 123,456.78
€ 123.456,78


And listening. My French accent would be charitably described as 'West Midlands'. This caused me some embarrassment until I realised how bad non native English could be and I would still understand it.

One of the fascinating things I find about language, English and others, is the untranslatable parts. That tends to define the country for me. Not the slang, or the idiom, there are generally equivalents, but expressions of e.g. emotion.

Andrew.

That is interesting, Andrew. Could you expand please? 'Expressions of e.g. emotion.'

​

 

[Brummie a long time ago]

That is interesting, Andrew. Could you expand please? 'Expressions of e.g. emotion.'

​

The obvious ones are ’Tutoyer‘, and the corresponding ‘Vouvoyer’, which literally translate as to use the tu or vous form of ‘you’ together with any necessary verb forms afterwards. This represents a concept not seen in English for example. Tu is used when addressing someone you know well, and often for children. Vous is formal. I would refer to Julie, my ‘femme’ (formal meaning woman but contextually wife) as tu, but always to you, or your wife as vous. When to change from vous to tu is fraught with dangers, as is the other way round for other peoples children. When the girl you fancy becomes your girlfriend, (you hope), then that would show an expression of romantic intent.

For something closer to raw emotion, try
j’ai chaud, versus je suis chaud. They both ‘translate’ to the same thing, but in this weather the first is OK, but the second may get you more than you bargained for.

Try Châtelaine. This literally means a woman who is in charge of a castle. The concept is translatable, but no direct word in English because it is generally not required.

Lastly, Insortable. This is how you would describe someone who you wouldnt bring with you to a public place because they are embarrassing to you. The English word ?

Andrew.

 

[Brummie a long time ago]

I did try speaking French in France ( where else ) but they looked at me like i was daft, one even asked me if i was German

Same here, but they thought I was Dutch. Which is, I believe etymologically closer to English than French.
Andrew.

 

[Stokkie]

The obvious ones are ’Tutoyer‘, and the corresponding ‘Vouvoyer’, which literally translate as to use the tu or vous form of ‘you’ together with any necessary verb forms afterwards. This represents a concept not seen in English for example. Tu is used when addressing someone you know well, and often for children. Vous is formal. I would refer to Julie, my ‘femme’ (formal meaning woman but contextually wife) as tu, but always to you, or your wife as vous. When to change from vous to tu is fraught with dangers, as is the other way round for other peoples children. When the girl you fancy becomes your girlfriend, (you hope), then that would show an expression of romantic intent.

For something closer to raw emotion, try
j’ai chaud, versus je suis chaud. They both ‘translate’ to the same thing, but in this weather the first is OK, but the second may get you more than you bargained for.

Try Châtelaine. This literally means a woman who is in charge of a castle. The concept is translatable, but no direct word in English because it is generally not required.

Lastly, Insortable. This is how you would describe someone who you wouldnt bring with you to a public place because they are embarrassing to you. The English word ?

Andrew.

Thanks Andrew. German has Du/Sie which has a similar politeness / intimacy function and Early Modern English had Thou/You which Shakespeare makes much play of.

Thou and You in Shakespeare – Dr. Mark Womack

 

[Eric Gibson]

Angry at me posting Brummie or at the content?

 

[Pedrocut]

"I cannot write in English," he said, "because of the treacherous spelling."

 

[Richard Dye]

Some American usages are being adopted in the Midlands, birthed (as a verb) as in she birthed her baby. And gifted as in I was gifted a pair of socks. Both are used by my young adult children. The language processes here are very familiar so they may become the usual form. Hardly anyone says thrice, twice is being replaced by two times.

Some nations adopted wholesale spelling or alphabet reform. Turkey, Russia after the Revolution, the French Revolution, and more modestly German reduced umlauts and use of the strong s. ß
Spelling reform has been strongly resisted in the UK.

H’m those terms are not widely used in the US that I have heard. Regifting has become a often used word meaning to give a gift as a gift that was given to you. Birthing is used to describe the process or event.

 

[Stokkie]

H’m those terms are not widely used in the US that I have heard. Regifting has become a often used word meaning to give a gift as a gift that was given to you. Birthing is used to describe the process or event.

That's enlightening Richard. The origins of words and phrases can be difficult to trace and I've not done anything to research this. Both are used widely in the media here. We do have International English as opposed to British English and there's the possibility that some younger Americans in say California have started a trend which has been picked up. Or equally it is certainly possible that these words began to be used in a new way in London and the South East and are sweeping the country. Many young people do speak with an Essex/London accent, though they don't originate from there. It has a name 'Estuary English.' But thank you, I'll see what I can dig up. Language does change continually and sometimes these changes are internal, rather than from some external influence. Young people are the innovators in language. But a lazy assumption of mine to assume these were of American origin, my bad (as I never say!)

 

[Brummie a long time ago]

H’m those terms are not widely used in the US that I have heard.

The origins of words and phrases can be difficult to trace

Richard, Derek. There is one word that I would love to see incorporated into English, simply because it sounds good.
Cromulent.
This can be traced to the February 18, 1996 episode of The Simpsons as part of a challenge to introduce a couple of new words. I like it because it almost self defining, as in
"Cromulent is a perfectly cromulent word".
It is apparently used enough 'over there' that Merriam-Webster are tracking it for future inclusion.

On the birthing and (re)gifting track, one word I cannot come to terms with is 'embiggen', to make bigger. It fits in terms of its construction, but just stands out as not quite right somehow.

my bad (as I never say!)

Andrew.

 

[Eric Gibson]

The first time I heard 'cool' was in a tv series called 77 Sunset Strip there was a young man, I think called Cookie, who used it frequently and I think the young Brits at the time copied it,

 

[adap2it]

When I arrived in Canada I found the difference in use of words to be quite annoying. As far as I was concerned, English was English and everything else was wrong. I guess that sort of attitude is what leads to a stereotypical view of people from the UK. However, things quickly became normal and acceptance was achieved. I have noticed a couple of things that are said in the UK, that I feel are more correctly said on this side of the pond. The term "pressurize" when referring to being pushed to do something is called being "pressured" over here. Also, the term "orientated" is "oriented" here. Doing a complete 180... Thoughts?
Dave A

 

[mikejee]

I would have said Pressured was the more normal word in the uk, and orientated would to me seem to be more business speak than normal English.

 

[Richard Dye]

That's enlightening Richard. The origins of words and phrases can be difficult to trace and I've not done anything to research this. Both are used widely in the media here. We do have International English as opposed to British English and there's the possibility that some younger Americans in say California have started a trend which has been picked up. Or equally it is certainly possible that these words began to be used in a new way in London and the South East and are sweeping the country. Many young people do speak with an Essex/London accent, though they don't originate from there. It has a name 'Estuary English.' But thank you, I'll see what I can dig up. Language does change continually and sometimes these changes are internal, rather than from some external influence. Young people are the innovators in language. But a lazy assumption of mine to assume these were of American origin, my bad (as I never say!)

Derek, I’m not sure about California anymore. Many people are leaving there in droves!
On a more serious note the US (and Canada) are so very large geographically that cultures are quite different, driven in part by ethnicity which has continued to change. For many the line of demarcation was the Mason Dixon Line, north and south. That has changed significantly with many northerners (like us) moving south and to Texas.

 

[Stokkie]

Derek, I’m not sure about California anymore. Many people are leaving there in droves!
On a more serious note the US (and Canada) are so very large geographically that cultures are quite different, driven in part by ethnicity which has continued to change. For many the line of demarcation was the Mason Dixon Line, north and south. That has changed significantly with many northerners (like us) moving south and to Texas.

Richard, I think that birthed and gifted may have originated in African-American Vernacular English, but I don't have access to the data sets I used before I retired. There is some variation in the UK of course outwith being used in Scotland and some Scots speakers in England. Meaning outside of course. Derek

 

[adap2it]

I would have said Pressured was the more normal word in the uk, and orientated would to me seem to be more business speak than normal English.

I only hear Pressurized & Orientated when I'm watching the BBC, Mike, it really jumps out at me!
Dave A

 

[Tinpot]

0ne of the uses of words that I dislike these days is the impact branding has had on the names of organisations. Banks/Insurance Companies continue to anonymise themselves. The FA Cup has had so many brand names it has been rendered meaningless to me. Trade Unions don’t identify the trades they represent eg Unison, Unite. Meaningless, rootless companies on the tv/internet who will bring cars to my door.

 

[Richard Dye]

When I arrived in Canada I found the difference in use of words to be quite annoying. As far as I was concerned, English was English and everything else was wrong. I guess that sort of attitude is what leads to a stereotypical view of people from the UK. However, things quickly became normal and acceptance was achieved. I have noticed a couple of things that are said in the UK, that I feel are more correctly said on this side of the pond. The term "pressurize" when referring to being pushed to do something is called being "pressured" over here. Also, the term "orientated" is "oriented" here. Doing a complete 180... Thoughts?
Dave A

Dave, a shift in Canada has to be Montreal & Quebec and the French influence. Many years ago I worked for General Foods who had a plant in Montreal, the French influence on the language was very strong. My comments regarding orientated which is used in the US is used by people that do not understand what the word means, yes oriented!

 

[adap2it]

Dave, a shift in Canada has to be Montreal & Quebec and the French influence. Many years ago I worked for General Foods who had a plant in Montreal, the French influence on the language was very strong. My comments regarding orientated which is used in the US is used by people that do not understand what the word means, yes oriented!

I respectfully disagree about the use of oriented/orientated. I have never, up to this point in my life at 82, heard orientated used on this side of the pond, or pressurized (into doing something). Not saying it doesn't get said over here, just that I have never heard it.
Dave Sr.

 

[Richard Dye]

I respectfully disagree about the use of oriented/orientated. I have never, up to this point in my life at 82, heard orientated used on this side of the pond, or pressurized (into doing something). Not saying it doesn't get said over here, just that I have never heard it.
Dave Sr.

Dave, I think we are on the same page! Orientated is used infrequently in the US most recently in NYC and Philadelphia areas! Not sure about pressurized.

 

[Eric Gibson]

• According to the OED, the first occurrence of the verb "to orient" is from 1728, of "to orientate" from 1848. Neither is particularly old, but both have been around for some time now. At the present time the former is more common in the US, the latter more common in the UK.

 

[Penns]

Language, unlike people, constantly evolves

 

[MartinS]

When I arrived in Canada I found the difference in use of words to be quite annoying. As far as I was concerned, English was English and everything else was wrong. I guess that sort of attitude is what leads to a stereotypical view of people from the UK. However, things quickly became normal and acceptance was achieved. I have noticed a couple of things that are said in the UK, that I feel are more correctly said on this side of the pond. The term "pressurize" when referring to being pushed to do something is called being "pressured" over here. Also, the term "orientated" is "oriented" here. Doing a complete 180... Thoughts?
Dave A

Dave, it was exactly the same experience for me when I arrived here in Canada in November 1974, fresh from Brum. Yes, it was rather annoying for me too to see words misspelled, or is that misspelt?

When I apparently mentioned how it was "back home" with some frequency, I was told that if it was so much better, why not go back there?! Hence, I have not said "back home" since early in 1975. I became a Canadian citizen in 1978 and made every effort to adapt to, or at least be mindful that the English way, is not necessarily the only right way in the world!

As far as I am concerned, there is no telling which if any version of written English is the most correct, especially since English itself was bastardised/bastardized from mulitple languages over an extensive period of time.

As you alluded, some English words do not make as much sense when compared with the Canadian and US English that I have become so accustomed to during the past forty-eight years. I do tend to use "orientated" more frequently than oriented, unless I force myself to conciously choose! Sometimes I will avoid such clashes and use "introduced" or similar wording.

Then comes the decision when purchasing a computer keyboard, whether to opt for a Canadian English or US English keyboard, with the latter being the most commonly used keyboard, by those of us who do not communicate in "written" Canadian French language, where there are some small variations in the keys. So, we opt for the keyboard that most closely fits our needs. I do not need French accents on my keyboard since I only communicate with one French Candian, Marc Andre, who I am quite sure is forgiving of my omission of the acute accent on the letter e in his name.

It does take every ounce of my energy to resist changing "colour" to "color"!

"Prise" and "pry" are another pair of words, where using Canadian English "to pry a stuck object loose", simply makes more sense to me than to "prise it loose". Then, there's "comprised" and "comprised of". Where does it all end?!!

I believe that given alternate spellings and apart from a few devout "grammar Nazis", most any variant of a word has become widely acceptable in general written communication.

Had I remained in Birmingham, I might never have encountered so many differences in application of grammar, punctuation and spelling, which would have resulted in a lack of understanding and acceptance of the variances.

Martin S

 

[Radiorails]

A friend in Ottawa and I never experience language difficulties, but he is of the 'old school'. But he does, occasionally, get misunderstood by some Americans. That. I suppose, is the diverse nature of America.

 

[Brummie a long time ago]

"England and America are two countries separated by a common language." Variously attributed to George Bernard Shaw, Winston Churchill or Oscar Wilde. Most of the discussions point to Shaw. (And he was Irish, and apparently didn't write it down either !). Churchill used a variation of it substituting "Americans and British are one people separated by a common language."

I think TV and the internet have done much to homogenise (homogenize ?) English variations generally.

Andrew.

 

[Eric Gibson]

I've been watching the 'Walter presents' European tv programmes for weeks now, many are located at various European borders so they have Swedish Danish Polish German and other police forces working together cross border, when they're in their own countries they speak their own languages but when they all get together they invariably speak in English.

 

[Chunky AC]

I've been watching the 'Walter presents' European tv programmes for weeks now, many are located at various European borders so they have Swedish Danish Polish German and other police forces working together cross border, when they're in their own countries they speak their own languages but when they all get together they invariably speak in English.

Great programs, we just love them. Puts Vera, Midsummer Murders, and the like to shame. Plus the added advantage according to my wife, reading the subtitles keeps me awake!!! Alf