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Fred Gwilliam

Q

quilly

knowlegable brummie
John Young said:
Nice pub , early years

Hi again Owen & to add to pmc1947 description ;)

Very early years of this Public House would have been very nice,
a Very affluent & socially accepted area, Pershore Road close proximity
to Warwickshire Cricket at Edgbaston (County) ground,
Probably "Earl Grey" tea & scones scenario on Family Sunday strolls,
but as the City developed many areas changed social makeup,
inner areas once much vaunted sadly declined,,
as pmc1947 rightly depicted,, the Earl Grey was in 1960,s-1990,s
unfortunately slap bang in centre of "troublesome" area, Red light &
druggie stuff,, Police closed it down on regular basis,
Not sure if its still there?,, Cheers John Y :cool:
Click to expand...
Hi Owen. The only information on the Earl Grey that I have is from my dad who's mother Alice worked there around 1920 onwards. It was a busy place and there was a parrot in the bar that used to amuse the customer's with his colourful language!! I think the publicans sir name was Morris. My dad, Fred Gwilliam married Nellie Morris around 1930, she could have been related to him. The pub was still going strong in the 1970s when I used to pass it on the bus, I only wish I'd have paid a visit to the Earl Grey as I'm currently trying to trace my family tree. Any information or picture's would be great if anyone can help.
Cheers
Lynn

owen said:
Can anyone give me the history of this pub on the Pershore Road C1850s of any information.
Click to expand...
 
Nellie appears to be listed as Collins on her marriage to Fred (Frederick George) Gwilliam and Frank H Gauntlett. Though she is listed as Nellie Morris Gwilliam on the 1939 register.
 
Thanks for that information. Can you advise me how to find out who Fred Gwilliams family were please?
 
You can look at the 1939 register on both findmypast and Ancestry. The 1921 census is findmypast and Bham ERs are on Ancestry. There are various costs to view transcriptions and scans.

However, they appear to have lived at 1 back 288 Sherlock St from at least 1921 to 1939. With Alice and Frederick in 1921 there is a boarder (Frederick Guest) and his son. In 1939 the son (also Frederick Guest) is still with Frederick Gwilliam at the Sherlock St address.
 
Thank you for your help. I will look on the sites you suggested, not sure which will be the most help to find out about Fred's father and mother Alice Gwilliam nee Smith or siblings?
Thanks again.
 
I can help if you want? I think I've found a little out.

Here is another site you can use, I use this in combination with the others...

FamilySearch.org

Discover your family history. Explore the world’s largest collection of free family trees, genealogy records and resources.
www.familysearch.org www.familysearch.org
 
I'd really appreciate your help please.
I haven't any idea if Alice had other children, if her name was Gwilliam or possibly Smith or if Fred's father ever lived with them. So anything would be helpful.
Thank you
 
Ok. There is some variations in the name Gwilliam but these seem to be the right people.

Frederick George Gwilliam is listed as Gillmn mmn Smith, Sep qtr 1910 which ties in with his dob given at death.

His parents appear to be George Gwilliam and Alice Smith, though I can't see a marriage for them.

In 1911 they are listed as Guillam living on William St and with them is an Elsie Smith (aged 10) who looks to be Alice's daughter.

Alice is listed as being born 1877 Bridgnorth and George 1869 Welsh Town.

It is possible George was born in Kington or maybe close by. He dies in 1920.

There doesn't appear to be an illegitimate Elsie Smith registered around 1901 in Bham or Aston. Which could mean that Alice wasn't born a Smith and married one and the mmn on Frederick George's birth registration is wrong (unlikely if the birth was registered by Alice) or Elsie's birth place is wrong on the 1911 census.

Not easy to resolve as it is Smith but will have another look.
 
Thank you so much for this information. I would really like to know what Alice's maiden name was and when she died if that's possible? I'm so pleased that you could help me.
 
Unfortunately not easy to say.

Alice lists her birthplace as Bridgnorth on both the 1911 and 1921 census but different birth years not uncommon and there are 2 Alice Smiths born Bridgnorth around that time but they don't quite match. Again not uncommon but Smith complicates things making it difficult to confirm or otherwise.

Also her death is not easy because, as it appears she didn't marry George Gwilliam, it could have been registered as Smith. There are 3 deaths for an Alice Gwilliam of about the right age and 2 would match ladies on the 1939 register, neither of which is yours. This leaves one death, however Alice is listed on the 1927 ER at Sherlock St but she doesn't seem to be there in 1930 (or anywhere else afterwards). Which may mean she dies between those dates, however there's no matching Alice Gwilliam death.

The slim evidence that there is would suggest that her maiden name was Smith but I wouldn't be too confident. If you found out that it was her who registered Frederick's birth I'd be more confident but even then are mistakes, lies and misunderstandings - especially when people couldn't read or write.
 
Again Thank you for your help. Is there anything about Elsie Smith's death? I know at some point Frederick Gwilliam was in the army, maybe it was in WW1? Was there a cause of death for George Gwilliam in 1920?
 
Thank you. I'll do that. Is it likely I'd be able to find when Elsie died and get a copy of her certificate too?
 
With your dad being born in 1910 it's likely he fought in WW2. If you know his details you can send off for his records, there are very few WW2 records available online.

His marriage certificate to Nellie may contain some useful information also. If you're fortunate then Elsie or Alice could be a witness. If not, there might not be anything on it you don't already know.

Unfortunately again, Elsie seems impossible to trace without more info, just too many unknowns. On the 1911 census her age is 10 so she should be on the 1901 census presumably with Alice but haven't found her or Alice yet. With Elsie only appearing on one record there's no corroboration and if there's a mistake you could easily get the wrong person.

I think the GRO is the best place to order certificates from, you can order online and by phone. You have to register and be sure you order the right one, costs can soon mount up. Here's the link...

 
I can't thank you enough for your help. I didn't think I'd ever find anything about my dad's family. Again thank you.
 
  • Appreciate
Reactions: MWS
Of the two Alice Smiths born in Bridgnorth, it's definitely not the Alice born 1881 as she is still living in Bridgnorth in 1911 and the last sign of the one born 1871 is the 1891 census when she is living in Halifax, so puts a bit more doubt on her.

Which possibly means something isn't quite right - name, age or birthplace.
 
MWS said:
Nellie appears to be listed as Collins on her marriage to Fred (Frederick George) Gwilliam and Frank H Gauntlett. Though she is listed as Nellie Morris Gwilliam on the 1939 register.
Click to expand...
Hi MWS.
I didn't ask if there was any cost for the information you got for me? Please let me know.
 
Morning. Could I ask for your help again please? Is I subscribe to the site/forum you recommend I understand there's costs involved, would I be able to see certificates and records I need to continue my search or will I need to get copies of certificates from GRO?
 
In the main certificates need to be purchased from GRO. Birth and death certs are not on Ancestry and I don't think they are on FMP or elsewhere. Some church marriage certs from certain areas are on Ancestry but these tend to be pre 1930s. Birmingham C of E parish marriages are on Ancestry to 1937 (not all churches). RC marriages for Birmingham are at St Chad's cathedral although some records are on Family Search. C of E baptism records can also be found for some areas and churches - if you are lucky these might show a dob.
 
Yes - this was from Ancestry and I posted it to show what you might find. Not all records are as easy to find so don't expect miracles. It also needs patience especially if there could be name variations.
You can register on Ancestry and Find My Past for a free trial - I did this and then decided which I preferred. Or you can subscribe for a month at a time if you think you only want a quick search.
 
Quite a number of us on here enjoy the challenge of helping people new to research or who have hit a stumbling block. I know I enjoy the sleuthing and so does MWS - fresh pair(s) of eyes can help sometimes.
Good luck and let us know how you get on.
 
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