High Street Deritend Digbeth

[mikejee]

Dennis
I seem to remember reading SOMEWHERE that the building was built as a warehouse. However i cannot find where it was (or if I was right). Thomas Bonser died in Jan. 17th 1861, In 1845 the site was occupied by Badham & Kirkham, who were also iron merchants, but they had disappeared by 1849, when the site seemed to be occupied by two small firms (an posssibly partly unoccupied). By 1855 thomas bonser was there . He seems to have previously been a coal merchant at Old wharf.

 

[Dennis Williams]

Brilliant, thanks Mike, you always 'know' these things.

And a couple from the air showing either end of the High Street, from the top of the Bull Ring to the Bordesley Street/Camp Hill island junction...and please disregard the caption concerning the whereabouts of New Street Station in the first postcard....he meant Smithfield Market really....

 

[rosie]

My ancestors used to live where that yellow Clothing Shop is now, 82 Digbeth. (# 91) It was William Pratt, a printer. My gt.gt. grandmother Selina (Inwood nee Bettridge) and some of her children moved in with him and took his name for a while (she was still married to someone else). He died in 1861. She then bigamously married Thomas Yapp, and they were there for a while with her father Joseph Bettridge. Also used as a newsagent and bookseller.
Apparently William Pratt was well known for his printed sheet music.
rosie.

 

[Dennis Williams]

Fascinating rosie. Some snippets from the Web about your illustrious rellie...




I know it's a long shot but was your Mr Yapp a relative of Stanley Yapp our erstwhile Lord Mayor by any chance?

 

[rosie]

Thank you for the information Dennis.

Unfortunately I've never found a connection to the Lord Mayor even though Mum hoped I would!!

I presume these buildings have change greatly since that time, but the Landlady of the Public House next door Jane Chandler was a witness to the marriage. (From memory, The Horse & Groom?)

rosie.

 

[Dennis Williams]

Now you're talking! The Horse and Groom it was rosie. Now my one finger typing takes a while, so I'll post this clip from Joe Mckenna's book on Brummie Pubs, and a map of the area dated 1888 to get the bearings right for other readers...



Now the pub next door to the pub next door is even more famous, and one of THE most ancient in our City. The Old Bull's Head, a pub being there the best part of 250 years or more, also known as the Little Bull's Head in deference to the Big Bull's Head further down the High Street; then briefly as The Roscommon Bar; then finally the still going Kerryman (see below). You do not need to be a genius to work out a distinctly Irish connection! The local pub for the 'Epsom Gang' and the infamous Tommy Tank "who sold kippers from a pony-drawn cart - a man known to have drunk in every one of the foty five pubs within a radius of 250 yards of Digbeth Police Station, and to have been banned in everyone too".

Mckenna does confuse me a little as to which pub stood where. As he says "very briefly in 1865, at 81 Digbeth High Street, was The New Inn, under licencee William Milnes. Immediately next door was the the Bull's Head" ...THREE pubs all in a row? Mikejee needs to fill us in with a proper labelled map...? He will fix it.

I've put two current Google shots of the premises now. Can you identify where the Horse and Jockey was in relation to the Warehouse and the Kerryman? The building to the left of the Warehouse looks favourite with those pointy gables...?

 

[Dennis Williams]

Just found a couple more from that area...the pub on the corner of Milk st is the Big Bull, of course, and the old Battery building was where the Digbeth Institute was...

 

[rosie]

I've just had a look at the census I printed off for 1861 when she called herself Selina Pratt, she was at 82 and the Horse and Groom was 83.
My 1973 Kelly's gives 80-81 for the Old Bull's Head, just to add to the confusion! Perhaps in later years they knocked them into one?
The numbering is a bit strange there, I suppose because there were courts also. In 1973 the Big Bull's Head was 75, Owen Simon 78,78a, Lighting Galleries 78 also. 79 was Joe Coral Turf Accountant, with Digbeth Civic Hall in between with no number!! I hope this makes sense, it took so long to type I got "logged out!"

 

[rosie]

The 1861 census shows 10 pubs and Inns for Digbeth!
127 Kings Head
120 Horse & Jockey
109 Castle & falcon
99 White Lion
83 Horse & Groom
81 Old Bull's Head Inn
77 New Bull's Head
45 Unicorn
32 Three Tuns
16 Talbot
I typed a bit faster this time!!
rosie.

 

[mikejee]

Below is a map showing the pubs around no 81.As can be seen the Big bulls Head chnged to Criterean between th e1884 & 1888 Kellys. I can find no eveidence of A New Inn around there.No 81 is usuallt ascribed to the Old Bulls Head . I feel the New Inn Ref. is a cock up by McKenna. there is a New in at 191 Bromsgrove St, which is occupied by william milnes in the 1862 Corporation directory, and in 1867 by Mrs Catherine Milnes. I find it very difficult to believe that he moved to a new pub, giving it the same name as his old one , while the old retained its name, and his wife was laterat the old pub !

 

[Dennis Williams]

Ha! Got him again. You are a true scholar mike. i thought it unlikely. IF the Horse and Groom (or the upper part at least) was still extant in 1949, then this shot, where you can see a quaint twin overhanging gabled building next to the Warehouse, might just fit the bill?

 

[Dennis Williams]

Another from this location 9 years before the above. Not sure what it shows!! No gables??

 

[Dennis Williams]

The 1861 census shows 10 pubs and Inns for Digbeth!
127 Kings Head
120 Horse & Jockey
109 Castle & falcon
99 White Lion
83 Horse & Groom
81 Old Bull's Head Inn
77 New Bull's Head
45 Unicorn
32 Three Tuns
16 Talbot
I typed a bit faster this time!!
rosie.

Well rosie, I can only find no 99 and no 109 for you...

 

[lindyloo]

Another from this location 9 years before the above. Not sure what it shows!! No gables??


View attachment 81613

Hi Dennis, This photo has been driving me round the hat rack all evening and I've come to the conclusion that the caption is wrong. I don't believe that the dome mentioned belongs to the Institute. I believe it belongs to the building which stood on the corner of Oxford Street as shown in your photo in post #102.
To get the view of St Martins spire on the right of the Police Station Clock Tower it would not be possible to show the dome on The Institute ....well thats my opinion anyway....any thoughts would be most welcome...please

EDIT..I think the photo could only have been taken by the photographer standing by The Bonsar Building or The Institute.

 

[mikejee]

I agree Lindyloo. The view is forshortened because of the focal legth of the lens. The striped brickwork on the building in front of the tower , and the mixed brickwork of the building apaprently to the right of it both agree with them being the two buildings either side of theOxford st junction. You cannot see the junction because of the angle, and because the view is foreshortened it looks like htey are next to each other. this makes the building on th efar right of the picture to be the building immediately next to the Bonser Iron merchant's building.

 

[lindyloo]

!! Thanks Mike, I'm glad you can see it too.. it just goes to show, one shouldn't always take what is written as gospel !!
I can go to bed and rest easy now

 

[Astonian]

hi mike
i have a large print of the old bull ring from the year of 1949 so the building have not really changed since then from theperiod you are discussing
some time today i will take it down and study it for possible the answers
whilst dennis as mentioniond the iron works how far away is the pub called the old forge pub;as i used to run a pub in the bull ring years ago and i just cannot recal it at the moment surely this pub could have been around in those days orit was nameafter he iron works can you check that out
if its excistance was there during that period and whom ran it ;
at the week end i was speaking with an old long term friend of mine ;andhe told me of an friend of ours spent the evening in the old forge pub all night so its still there ;can you enlighten us about that its now known to the genereration as a afters session pub ; they came out at five saturday morning ;
i know most of th pubs and the gaffers personaly but i just cannot pin point theold forge so i would say it was or may e close to the iron works or the ware house what ver it was ; many thanks astonian;

 

[lindyloo]

Hi Astonian, The most up-to-date Kelly's I have access to is 1940 and the only pub I can find with a similar name to the one you mentioned is the "Forge Tavern" which was 230 Fazeley Street and it was run by Wilfred Watters (this is how it is spelt in the directory)
Hopefully someone else will have more recent information

 

[mikejee]

There was a Forge Tavern at 230 Fazeley St. Could that be it ?

 

[Phil]

Lindyloo

How observant of you. I must have looked at that photo hundreds of times and never noticed the error. Here is the building as Mike says on the corner of Oxford St.

 

[Dennis Williams]

There was a Forge Tavern at 230 Fazeley St. Could that be it ?

This is the one Alan...?? A popular pub for the Blues fans and local workers from the Bus Depot and the factories nearby. Sold Marstons I believe!!

 

[Dennis Williams]

I agree Lindyloo. The view is forshortened because of the focal legth of the lens. The striped brickwork on the building in front of the tower , and the mixed brickwork of the building apaprently to the right of it both agree with them being the two buildings either side of theOxford st junction. You cannot see the junction because of the angle, and because the view is foreshortened it looks like htey are next to each other. this makes the building on th efar right of the picture to be the building immediately next to the Bonser Iron merchant's building.

Attaboy mike. You are spot on once again. The 'stripey' building on the corner of Oxford Street intrigues me. Was it ever a Pub do you think? Gone now with the Smithfield garage demolition project.

And whilst you are here, have you anything on this lovely old George Makepeace building at the very top of the High Street? Lovely mix of art deco, Georgian eleganceand Victorian industrial splendour...

 

[dek carr]

Attaboy mike. You are spot on once again. The 'stripey' building on the corner of Oxford Street intrigues me. Was it ever a Pub do you think? Gone now with the Smithfield garage demolition project.

Dennis I can remember 3 of the shops from my youth.The one nearest Smithfield Garage was a Newsagents then the Minerva Cafe then a Hardware Shop not sure about the one on the corner though.Dek

 

[mikejee]

Dennis
Makepeace has been on before. See https://birminghamhistory.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=31286
The site of No 92 (the stripey building) was a grocers from at least 1841 till the 1950s under, succesively, Samuel Hedges, George Berkeley and Howard Marsh. No pub

 

[Dennis Williams]

Many thanks to dek and mike for the right stuff. I am now educated.

I believe that the line of demarcation of Digbeth (Upper) to Deritend (View attachment 81628Lower) was the River Rea, so the Rea bridge is particularly interesting to me. Some photos and maps to start with...

 

[Dennis Williams]

...of course the Bridge looks a bit different now...but the nice pointy building in the last photos DID have a pubby link at some stage...

 

[rosie]

In Kelly's for 1973, 92 is a toy wholesalers, W. Nicholls (Midlands) Ltd. The print is quite bad but I think there are only about 5 pubs by then.
Thanks for the map mike, 82 looks quite large in those days.
I must make an effort to go down there again one day, but you do get strange looks when you stand and stare at buildings!!
rosie.

 

[lindyloo]

Lindyloo

How observant of you. I must have looked at that photo hundreds of times and never noticed the error. Here is the building as Mike says on the corner of Oxford St.

Thanks Phil

 

[brummie nick]

In post #104 there's a picture of Morgans Famous Sausage premises. I seem to remember their large advertisement somewhere in Digbeth it was of a pig pulling a cart load of sausage, and said " Drawing his Owen Conclusion".


funny the things that 'jolt ya memory init?

 

[Dennis Williams]

The 1861 census shows 10 pubs and Inns for Digbeth!
127 Kings Head
120 Horse & Jockey
109 Castle & falcon
99 White Lion
83 Horse & Groom
81 Old Bull's Head Inn
77 New Bull's Head
45 Unicorn
32 Three Tuns
16 Talbot
I typed a bit faster this time!!
rosie.

Well rosie, if you typed them out with one finger (like wot I do)...the least a chap can do is fill in the pics for some of those Pubs.

The Talbot we've had, as we have the New Bulls Head, Horse and Groom, Castle and Falcon, and Old Bulls Head. The Unicorn is under the Smithfield garage I believe, and I've not seen any pics or drawings...so far he said hopefully...here's some of the others mentioned..