Heath Street
master brummie
If a relative committed suicide in Prison (possibly Winson Green) would there be a death certificate issued? Val (former Heath Street resident)
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Suicide in Prison
- Thread starter Heath Street
- Start date
Heath Street
master brummie
That's what I thought, from the prison records it appears that relative committed suicide 1880 but no death registered til 1889, perhaps two people in prison at same time with same name - would there be anyway of finding out who is mine! Many thanks Val
There would have. Been a way to decipher which one is yours by DOB ,And the Address And what charges was agaist them
Was they charged with and there would certainly be a death. Certificate issued and most certainly reported to the approiate department
Births and deaths marriage
I have a death certificate of a person whom was hung in Worcestershire prison in 1925 ( incidently for knowledge it was called the castle)
That being Worcestershire jail and it said death by hanging on it , that was issued from a birth and deaths office
There may be old records of it some where and I imagine there may have been a news paper reporting of it
But there again nobody. Cared about the people whom committed crime and what they got when in jail in those days
Best wishes Astonian,,,,,,
Was they charged with and there would certainly be a death. Certificate issued and most certainly reported to the approiate department
Births and deaths marriage
I have a death certificate of a person whom was hung in Worcestershire prison in 1925 ( incidently for knowledge it was called the castle)
That being Worcestershire jail and it said death by hanging on it , that was issued from a birth and deaths office
There may be old records of it some where and I imagine there may have been a news paper reporting of it
But there again nobody. Cared about the people whom committed crime and what they got when in jail in those days
Best wishes Astonian,,,,,,
Heath Street
master brummie
Hi Janice - name Charles Hemmings (alias) Charles William Hemmings (whilst in prison) death 1880, thanks for that - Val
Heath Street
master brummie
Hi Astonian - thanks for the info. Val
hello val i have found a small article in the cornwall gazette referring to a charles hemming who committed suicide in a birmingham goal...the article is dated 23rd july 1880 and says he committed suicide the previous sunday...i can let you know what it says on this thread or if you prefer i can send you a private message...so far i cant find anything in the birmingham papers but maybe other members will have better luck
lyn
lyn
Heath Street
master brummie
Wow - Lyn how did you do that with such speed! Its fine to send information on this thread, the Cornwall Gazette throws me....Many thanks for your help. Val
hi val i am subscribed to the british newspaper archives...wonderful site anyhow like i said i could not find anything in the brum papers so i did a random search for all parts of the country and this came up..its not much but i think it must be your rellie...
cornwall gazette dated 23rd july 1880
CHARLES HEMMING A NOTORIOUS THIEF AND PUGILIST COMMITTED SUICIDE ON SUNDAY IN A SHOCKING MANNER BY DASHING HIMSELF OVER CORRIDOR OF THE BIRMINGHAM GOAL WHERE HE WAS AWAITING TRIAL ON A CHARGE OF HIGHWAY ROBBERY...DEATH WAS INSTANTANEOUS ...THE FALL BEING BETWEEN 30 AND 40 FEET
cornwall gazette dated 23rd july 1880
CHARLES HEMMING A NOTORIOUS THIEF AND PUGILIST COMMITTED SUICIDE ON SUNDAY IN A SHOCKING MANNER BY DASHING HIMSELF OVER CORRIDOR OF THE BIRMINGHAM GOAL WHERE HE WAS AWAITING TRIAL ON A CHARGE OF HIGHWAY ROBBERY...DEATH WAS INSTANTANEOUS ...THE FALL BEING BETWEEN 30 AND 40 FEET
Lyn
Have just found that , at present the search on newspaper the site is not working properly. A lot of the time if you put a range of dates in it searches only on the first date , or sometimes only some dates. Or at least that is what I have just realised. this is probably why you haven't found it. I don't think I have necessarily found all refs, but here is a small one from a scottish paper, the southern reporter , and a big one in the Birm post . You will have to save the post one and make bigger on computer. Can e-mail you it if necessary
Mike
Have just found that , at present the search on newspaper the site is not working properly. A lot of the time if you put a range of dates in it searches only on the first date , or sometimes only some dates. Or at least that is what I have just realised. this is probably why you haven't found it. I don't think I have necessarily found all refs, but here is a small one from a scottish paper, the southern reporter , and a big one in the Birm post . You will have to save the post one and make bigger on computer. Can e-mail you it if necessary
Mike
pollypops
master brummie
I'm not sure what question G.P.H asked the Editor of the Birmingham Daily Post but this is the answer he got in the paper dated Tuesday 27 July 1880
Perhaps the question was how many other late night burials had there been in Birmingham and in which cemeteries they took place?
Perhaps the question was how many other late night burials had there been in Birmingham and in which cemeteries they took place?
Attachments
hi pol yes those are the ones that mike posted and i can read them ok when clicked on a couple of times..im sure val will be delighted with all these articles that gives here all the information she needs including where her rellie is buried
lyn
lyn
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pollypops
master brummie
Hi Lyn, I always think even though it is very sad to find articles like this on one of your ancestors they are also brilliant as they often give so much information about the person that you wouldn't otherwise know.
I always seem to learn something from them too - I had to google Felo-de-se as I had never heard it before - it is Latin for Felon to himself (suicide)
I thought the articles I put on #15 & #16 were the same as Mike posted but if viewing on a tablet you can"t enlarge it (although that might be just mine :uncomfortableness
I always seem to learn something from them too - I had to google Felo-de-se as I had never heard it before - it is Latin for Felon to himself (suicide)
I thought the articles I put on #15 & #16 were the same as Mike posted but if viewing on a tablet you can"t enlarge it (although that might be just mine :uncomfortableness
morning pol totally agee with you..the newspaper archives are a wonderful tool in helping us find out things about our rellies that we would otherwise never know about...thanks also for the definition of felo-de-se i thought it was something like that but was not sure...
lyn
lyn
edcartermo
master brummie
I also have found valuable information about ancestors in newspaper archives that has illuminated their lives in a way that bald facts cannot do. One grumbled about losing a contract supplying watering carts to Birmingham corporation, another involved, though innocently, it seems, in a copyright case involving pirated photographs: he was a partner in Oldham and Cooper on New Street in the 1870s.
Hi Janice
Sorry I have not been on site for afew days but I have been habit under the weather and in bed
But yes I am only to delighted to be any of assitance to you
The one I have of 1925 prison authority was issued from the gaol and its issued by government and owing to the severity of the case
In which it involved his wife whom was his victim which was in worcesteshire
On the subject of checking the news paper archives they are a good source as people have told you
I believe mike as discovered a network for you to look at with possible results of finding the answers to your question
Mike is a very professional in is work and as access to a lot of things to come up with answers he reallly Is an expert
But as its been mentioniond to you about the news paper archives it can be pains taking of time but more often than not
They come up with the gems
I can reomend one archive of news papers to research his the Worcestershire and berrow news paper archives for periods
Of such dates as for instances the 1800s early 1900s because in those periods it included most Birmingham cases and stories
From all over Birmingham and Bromsgrove and surrounding areas because this was before Worcestershire and Birmingham. Changed
The boundaries like kings Norton was Worcestershire and not brum in those days
The. Certif, I have on these two was also been printed in books of murder cases and judges court cases and names and prisons
I also got the original news paper cutting of the person charged with murder of his wife standing jnthe dock and. Being sentence to death
By the judge stating he will be hung at jail and sending for Albert pie point from Bradford
Also the prison cell where he was hung and some pictures of the prison grounds these was sent to me by a Mr Michael Grundy
A retired news reporter whom was on the case at the time
So houses you can possible get the info from the archives but its painstaking job,
And I got there death certified,,from one of our good forum member on this site and it was one of my ancesters whom committed him
To the gallows at worc,jail on his first case the other day I came into another old high court judge whom was wicked with criminals
Up before him he as retired now about four years ago he's really old ,when he mentioniond to me he was a judge I said oh yes
And it old him of my family connections oh yes I recall him and off he stumbled
Sorry for rambling on but do try and remember the worc, and berrow news archives tap it on Google and put the periods you
Are looking for you. May or not may find what you are looking for what other news. Papers have not got hold off and published
But they covered brum in those 1800s best of luck have since day an, Astonian,,,,,......... Alan,,,,,
Sorry I have not been on site for afew days but I have been habit under the weather and in bed
But yes I am only to delighted to be any of assitance to you
The one I have of 1925 prison authority was issued from the gaol and its issued by government and owing to the severity of the case
In which it involved his wife whom was his victim which was in worcesteshire
On the subject of checking the news paper archives they are a good source as people have told you
I believe mike as discovered a network for you to look at with possible results of finding the answers to your question
Mike is a very professional in is work and as access to a lot of things to come up with answers he reallly Is an expert
But as its been mentioniond to you about the news paper archives it can be pains taking of time but more often than not
They come up with the gems
I can reomend one archive of news papers to research his the Worcestershire and berrow news paper archives for periods
Of such dates as for instances the 1800s early 1900s because in those periods it included most Birmingham cases and stories
From all over Birmingham and Bromsgrove and surrounding areas because this was before Worcestershire and Birmingham. Changed
The boundaries like kings Norton was Worcestershire and not brum in those days
The. Certif, I have on these two was also been printed in books of murder cases and judges court cases and names and prisons
I also got the original news paper cutting of the person charged with murder of his wife standing jnthe dock and. Being sentence to death
By the judge stating he will be hung at jail and sending for Albert pie point from Bradford
Also the prison cell where he was hung and some pictures of the prison grounds these was sent to me by a Mr Michael Grundy
A retired news reporter whom was on the case at the time
So houses you can possible get the info from the archives but its painstaking job,
And I got there death certified,,from one of our good forum member on this site and it was one of my ancesters whom committed him
To the gallows at worc,jail on his first case the other day I came into another old high court judge whom was wicked with criminals
Up before him he as retired now about four years ago he's really old ,when he mentioniond to me he was a judge I said oh yes
And it old him of my family connections oh yes I recall him and off he stumbled
Sorry for rambling on but do try and remember the worc, and berrow news archives tap it on Google and put the periods you
Are looking for you. May or not may find what you are looking for what other news. Papers have not got hold off and published
But they covered brum in those 1800s best of luck have since day an, Astonian,,,,,......... Alan,,,,,
Heath Street
master brummie
SUICIDE IN PRISON - I am at a loss for words, many thanks to you all. Obviously suicide was looked on as a 'criminal offence' in those times. But having looked at the Prison Records for Charles Hemming - and I now think there were two! perhaps that's why the alias William was added, they! spent more time in jail than out of it and were no sooner out than back in again. The funeral cutting was so sad, life was far from easy then.....I presume as there was a newspaper cutting in a Cornwall paper it indicated that perhaps he was born in that area.
Mine appears to have been born in B'Ham, son of a Thomas, who might also have spent time in prison! Charles was married to a Elizabeth Baker so perhaps its 100% certain that this one is not mine, the cutting mentions he was married to a Caroline............of course I'm sure that does not mean anything...... The cuttings have really been a help and SO.. interesting, at least it might clarify things regarding the suicide. I will still download the cuttings and print as a keepsake to add to my Charles! Daft I know.
The Hemming/Hemmings families have been a great trial in my search for family members - 1000s of them, and I know that research for Charles parents is not going to be easy as they only appear all together with Charles aged 15 on 1861 Census.
You are doing a Fantastic Job, where would we be without your knowledge and help. Val
Mine appears to have been born in B'Ham, son of a Thomas, who might also have spent time in prison! Charles was married to a Elizabeth Baker so perhaps its 100% certain that this one is not mine, the cutting mentions he was married to a Caroline............of course I'm sure that does not mean anything...... The cuttings have really been a help and SO.. interesting, at least it might clarify things regarding the suicide. I will still download the cuttings and print as a keepsake to add to my Charles! Daft I know.
The Hemming/Hemmings families have been a great trial in my search for family members - 1000s of them, and I know that research for Charles parents is not going to be easy as they only appear all together with Charles aged 15 on 1861 Census.
You are doing a Fantastic Job, where would we be without your knowledge and help. Val
Hi heath street
Well in those days prison life was shear hell its was not like today's life sat in pure black out prison cells
Bread and water only exceriseing a yard apart hands behind your back no communication with another image no lights
Or cranking a big wheel a thousand time to get your bread and water in some periods that had to wear a leather moved masked
So they could not speak or see each other sure they never came back for punishment in dark dungeons
It must have been sheeer hell as its been reported in time gone by inside the prisons if they got the chance they would throw themselves over the balcony
Especiasly from top floors there was never no safety nets in those days
That would have been there only escape from the prison regime but committing sucide I would imagine it was a regular thing in those
Prisons all those years ago but today its an holiday camp the only ones whom cut themsselves are the poor mentally Il people
Whom should not be there and should have gone to hospitals not prisons harming themselves is quite common now in our prisons
But now they employ people with training in this field to attend to them
Where upon years ago they was no bothered they was I'll treated in those days of the dark ages
And in those days they would send people to prison for oweing debt and they was put into a brown uniform so they was seperated from the criminals of
Crime the was kept segregated from the thrives and vagabonds but still treated the same bread and water
I would not think they would come back for more punishment
I know from records that for many years there was a guy named smith whom was a persisted russler of cattle way back in time
Whom lived in derby and he had been to nearly all the prisons made from boyhood up to his old age when he was old in the 1950
He as now of course passed away he's seen the days of yester years ,and very few escaped from the Birmingham prison
Meaning Winson green over there years there one was with a gun made out of soap whom fooled the prison officer
One night and got through to the front gate but soon appended and one escaped and came back after a couple of days and told to go away
Wait until the police capture and bring you back and the train robber whom was assisted by a prison officer working at the prison
Whom actuly lived in the prison officers houses along the front of the prison before they demolished them and built a new prison wall and gates
He actuly got time himself for it his assistance was to let him out of the cell and across the yard wall
They used to take prisoners to there prison farm in frankly but no,one ever escaped from there
But surely none one would have ever gone back there in there dark ages but saying that one springs to my mine a guy whom will only call him convict number 49 whom was from stour street ladywood way back in those days and there was a perstant arm robber from Brookfield he ended up in Dartmoor jail
For life on the moors
Bso you see that's was there only escape from prison in those terribly 1800 s having to endevour those conditions
Best wishes Astionian,,,,,,
Well in those days prison life was shear hell its was not like today's life sat in pure black out prison cells
Bread and water only exceriseing a yard apart hands behind your back no communication with another image no lights
Or cranking a big wheel a thousand time to get your bread and water in some periods that had to wear a leather moved masked
So they could not speak or see each other sure they never came back for punishment in dark dungeons
It must have been sheeer hell as its been reported in time gone by inside the prisons if they got the chance they would throw themselves over the balcony
Especiasly from top floors there was never no safety nets in those days
That would have been there only escape from the prison regime but committing sucide I would imagine it was a regular thing in those
Prisons all those years ago but today its an holiday camp the only ones whom cut themsselves are the poor mentally Il people
Whom should not be there and should have gone to hospitals not prisons harming themselves is quite common now in our prisons
But now they employ people with training in this field to attend to them
Where upon years ago they was no bothered they was I'll treated in those days of the dark ages
And in those days they would send people to prison for oweing debt and they was put into a brown uniform so they was seperated from the criminals of
Crime the was kept segregated from the thrives and vagabonds but still treated the same bread and water
I would not think they would come back for more punishment
I know from records that for many years there was a guy named smith whom was a persisted russler of cattle way back in time
Whom lived in derby and he had been to nearly all the prisons made from boyhood up to his old age when he was old in the 1950
He as now of course passed away he's seen the days of yester years ,and very few escaped from the Birmingham prison
Meaning Winson green over there years there one was with a gun made out of soap whom fooled the prison officer
One night and got through to the front gate but soon appended and one escaped and came back after a couple of days and told to go away
Wait until the police capture and bring you back and the train robber whom was assisted by a prison officer working at the prison
Whom actuly lived in the prison officers houses along the front of the prison before they demolished them and built a new prison wall and gates
He actuly got time himself for it his assistance was to let him out of the cell and across the yard wall
They used to take prisoners to there prison farm in frankly but no,one ever escaped from there
But surely none one would have ever gone back there in there dark ages but saying that one springs to my mine a guy whom will only call him convict number 49 whom was from stour street ladywood way back in those days and there was a perstant arm robber from Brookfield he ended up in Dartmoor jail
For life on the moors
Bso you see that's was there only escape from prison in those terribly 1800 s having to endevour those conditions
Best wishes Astionian,,,,,,
pollypops
master brummie
Hi Val, it's a shame it's not your Charles Hemming - but good to have this one discounted so you can carry on looking for your one.
A lot of the papers in those days seem to give a brief round up of news from other districts so I don"t think the fact the suicide was reported in a Cornwall paper necessarily means that Charles Hemming had any connection with Cornwall.
Perhaps you could put all the info you know for definite about your Charles Hemming - birth year, addresses, wife name, marriage place and date etc. and see if anyone on here can find him for you. Was he definitely in jail? Do you know what he did and when he did it?
A lot of the papers in those days seem to give a brief round up of news from other districts so I don"t think the fact the suicide was reported in a Cornwall paper necessarily means that Charles Hemming had any connection with Cornwall.
Perhaps you could put all the info you know for definite about your Charles Hemming - birth year, addresses, wife name, marriage place and date etc. and see if anyone on here can find him for you. Was he definitely in jail? Do you know what he did and when he did it?