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Royal Engineers, Waterways And Railways Division, Ww1

Alright then Bewdley, what do you make of this? There's no other London Gazette notice and apart from the 1915 Rifle Brigade one, nothing else involving this man.

Maurice
 

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Another non-starter. 1939 Register shows widow Gladys BUTLER living with Frank W. BUTLER, a materials control clerk, but his date of birth is not until 25 September 1916.

Maurice
 
Just reading the info in #8 and #9. The sailing on the Warwick Castle to Durban on 1st Sept 1933 is after the trip on the Caernarvon Castle. So he returned to England in July to Sheffield and then left again in September. I can't see a return trip at the moment.
 
You're right, Janice, how did I miss that? But I checked the South African deaths again today on both Familysearch and the official South African site and not a sausage. I also checked the UK Probate to 1990, which sometimes contains overseas death if they have assets in the UK and again not a thing.

Maurice
 
Just done a time line for Frank Whitting, if only to sort out the info we have discovered in my own head. I'll put it on here just in case there is something glaringly obvious to someone that I've missed.

Something I noticed whilst checking it over was in 1911 there is a visitor to the family whose place of birth is Cape Town, S Africa which could be significant, but I can't find a link.

1883 - born Somerset

1911 - census he is living in Bristol with his mother Sarah, sister Marjorie Emma and a visitor Gwendoline Mann aged 24 who is single and gives her birthplace as Cape Town, South Africa. She is a British Subject by parentage

1911 - 26th July 1911 travelled aboard the Royal Edward from Bristol England arriving in Quebec on the 1st August 1911 aged 28, (indicates on form he is married, but this could be an error), occupation Surveyor.

? how did he get from Montreal to S Africa.

1914 - Travelled from Algoa Bay, S Africa to London 4th November 1914 aged 31.

1915 - Travelled to Algoa, S Africa from London on 16th Jan 1915, Country of intended residence S Africa, Occupation Manager aged 31.

? need to find return travel to England.

1915 - Back in England by 6 July 1915 and enlisted in the 13th Battalion, Rifle Brigade.

1915 -Joined army during 1915 regimental numbers Rifle Bde S/13326. RFN. Royal Engineers 168591. A/2/CPL WR 200291.

1915 - Admitted to hospital - 2nd Birmingham War Hospital (Northfield) 17 Aug 1915 Birmingham – Nephritis.

? when did he return to S Africa.

1933 - Travelled from Capetown, S Africa to Southampton, England on 3 July 1933 aboard Carnarvon Castle destination 32 Hangingwater Road, Ranmoor, Sheffield. Occupation Commercial Traveller aged 50. He gives his Country of Permanent Residence as Union of S Africa.

? I wonder what, if anything, brought him home for these 2 months.

1933 - Left 114 Taunton Road, Bridgewater, England travelling to S Africa 1st Sept 1933 on the Warwick Castle. Occupation commercial traveller aged 51. Country of Intended Residence - South Africa.

? settled and probably died in S Africa.



He's got to be somewhere !!!!
 
Is he the person listed as Frank Whiting on the Walmer Castle arriving in England on 23 June 1915? Country of permanent residence given as S Africa. Occupation is Manager but that could mean anything. DoB is 1883.
 
Once we allow the name to be WHITING rather than WHITTING, we should open up a whole new, and much larger, ball game. However, I've just checked for Frank WHITING deaths in South Africa between 1933 and 1990 and still found nothing. Checking UK Deaths gives one in 1948 (Sutton Coldfield), one in 1949 (Lutterworth), one in 1952 (Suffolk) and one in 1968 (Stroud) with probate for all, but not offering any clues other that calculated age of either 1882 or 1883.

Maurice
 
There is a Frank Whitting who died in Australia in March 1962 - that would mean he moved countries but who knows? His Mother seems to have died in Yorkshire and there are some Whittings listed there - I wonder if there is a connection?
 
Janice, this is most likely to be the Frank Whiting who was born in Sheffield and enlisted in the Australian Army from 1914 to 1920. I believe he stayed on there after the war.

There is obviously some sort of South Africa connection, probably Cape Town, so as I am already a member of the South African Mailing List, I'll add a query to that.Done, now sit back and wait!

Maurice
 
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Dear Maurice and "Master Brummie"! I've been out of the loop for a few days as I'm in the middle of my 77 hrs week night shift! Thankyou So much for all your Brilliant detective work and at last I know Frank was in the area at the right time. The newspaper cutting on Frank and two other soldiers who went AWOL just before Christmas 1915 is intriguing as they may have come up to Birmingham which would also be the right time as Hilda had her son "Frank Whitting" 25th. September 1916. Just to recap, baby Frank's original birth certificate was altered later on by persons unknown. The child's name, Frank Whitting, was scribbled out and Robert Butler was written over the top. He grew up thinking Hilda was his big sister! Frank/Robert was born in 10, Back, 460 Garrison Lane. I went to the Central Library last week and they discovered it was a private house owned by Sarah Jane White. They were able to tell me about child-care in the area at the time and how Hilda might have managed. There were people who would help unmarried mothers and Hilda might have been hidden away for her "lying-in" as the Authorities had no qualms about just taking illegitimate babies away! There were also creches where women could leave their babies for days at a time. Once again Thankyou for your help and interest! Sue.
 
Dear Maurice and Janice, I've been out of the loop for a few days on my 77 hr. night shift this week and I'm So pleased with all that you've found! The newspaper cutting about Frank and two other soldiers who went AWOL just before Christmas 1915 is intriguing - could they have come up to Birmingham? Just to recap, Hilda Butler had her baby 25th. Sept. 1916 in 10 Back, 460 Garrison Lane. The house was owned by Sarah Jane White and it was a private residence. I went to the Central Library last week and they found this information for me. They also said that Hilda could have been hidden away for her "lying-in" as the Authorities had no qualms about simply taking illegitimate babies away. The baby's original birth certificate has his name as Frank Whitting and it was altered by persons unknown (scribbled out) and Robert Butler written above. The name of the father is blank and Hilda May Butler under the mother. I was very interested to find out F.W had nephritis and his travels! Frank/Robert grew up thinking his mother was his big sister and carried on to his son, also Robert Butler who thought his grandmother was his aunt! Thanks for all your hard work! Sue.
 
Thanks to Maurice's post #31 - here is Frank W Butler aka Robert Butler on 1939 register, it's on 2 pages but shows him living with Henry Butler b 1870 so ? grandfather at 36 Grove Street, Royal Leamington Spa
 

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I have attached the 1911 census for Hilda May Butler and her family who were living in West Bromwich at the time
 

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Just catching up on this as I have been out all day and evening. So we have circumstantial evidence to say that Frank Whitting born in 1883 was the unnamed biological father on Frank W. Butler's birth certificate, but still don't know where he ended his days, if I'm reading that correctly. I think it unlikely that Frank Whiting's Army service record would help with his location after the war, and without definite proof we're not going to get access to them until such time as there is another general release. Unless someone on the South African list comes up with something (and I've searched all the NAIRS databases), that might be it for a while.

Maurice
 
We're making a little progress. Two people on the South African List have come up with the same name - Hilda Geraldine WHITTING nee ASHFIELD - who died in 1976, her death being preceded by that of her husband, Frank WHITTING. Here the full computerised print out of the index:-

DEPOT TAB

SOURCE MHG

REFERENCE 11900/76

DESCRIPTION WHITTING, HILDA GERALDINE. (BORN ASHFIELD).

STARTING 19760000

ENDING 19760000

REMARKS PREDECEASED SPOUSE FRANK WHITTING.


We now need someone in Pretoria to withdraw the actual record and photographic it, for which there is usually a charge, Fortunately one of the people who provided this information has intimated that she can provide a link for this process, so I will proceed to put this process in motion and continue communication with Sue for the time being via the BHF Private Message system.

Maurice
 
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Indeed, Janice, though I wonder why no one has so far found Frank, if he predeceased her. She does not appear to have been born in the UK, nor does the marriage appear to have taken place here. Hopefully, her papers, if we succeed in obtaining them, will throw some light on the whole matter. I will keep this thread posted.

Maurice
 
I did find a Miss H Ashfield aged 2 who sailed to S Africa in 1900 but could find no further details (could be a coincidence). I did find her name here https://www.ancestor.co.za/ but you need a subscription to ee the records. I do not know if world membership would let you see the record or not.

Janice
 
Good Morning Janice,

The South African Ancestry site is basically a dump of the National Archives of South Africa Index and beyond that nothing is digitised. I have now organised a South African contact to extract the file and photograph it, but that may take a couple of weeks until she gets over to Pretoria. Until then we won't know what the file contains. And there is no corresponding file for her husband. I'll have a look at that sailing later as I'm busy until about 4:00pm, but I could find no UK births or marriage for Hilda Ashfield that made sense.

Maurice
 
The details are below and she was with a Mrs Ashfield aged 29 and a Master B Ashfield aged 3.
Name: Miss H Ashfield
Gender: Female
Age: 2
Birth Date: abt 1898
Departure Date: 14 Apr 1900
Port of Departure: Southampton, England
Destination Port: Algoa Bay, South Africa
Ship Name: Kinfauns Castle
Shipping line: Castle Line
Official Number: 110173
Master: R Duncan
 
Frank Whiting, Army number 20091, Acting 2nd Corpl, Royal Engineers Railway Division ( no 8 Railway RE was at Longmore near Salisbury Plain during WW11).

29 June 1915 to 28 Jan 1919 discharged on sickness, was awarded the Silver War Medal.
 
Janice,

Given that there is only a year between these two ASHFIELD children, I would expect them to be born in registration districts that were the same or in close proximity and that doesn't appear to be the case. There's also 12 years between Frank WHITTING and Mrs ASHFIELD. None of this is impossible, of course, but no great pointers towards a connection between these ASHFILDs and Frank WHITTING as I see it. I'll wait for the file before spending too much time trying to make a connection.

Ray,

Thanks for your interest, but Sue had already got the Silver War Medal details and we have a Birmingham link of sorts via the VAD Hospital

Maurice
 
I agree but I felt it was worth a mention. I wondered if they had been born in S Africa? I was thinking of him marrying Miss H (being older). However, we will wait and see what comes from SA.
 
I did not intend that to sound arrogant, Janice, just trying to make the best use of my time! :)

The family is in the "English"column, but I've had that so many time and people have been born elsewhere and Frank WHITTING would have been 17 years old at the time of that sailing, and the Index Description does say born ASHFIELD, not former name. (Of course, she could have married a first cousin!)

Maurice
 
I quite understand about use of time. I was suggesting that the Ashfield's went to S Africa and that Miss H later met and married Frank Whitting.
 
Except that if born in England or Wales, the only choices are 3rd Qtr 1900 Hilda Elizabeth (Lambeth) or 4th Qtr 1900 Hilda Daisy (Birmingham), based on that sailing. I'd already ruled out a Hilda Geraldine in post #49. At least there are accessible records not completely killed by data privacy acts as in the Western Canadian states!

Maurice
 
I am not sure if "English" means born in England or born of English parents? We could keep going with this so let's just wait and see what your contact comes up with.
 
Frank Whiting, Army number 20091, Acting 2nd Corpl, Royal Engineers Railway Division ( no 8 Railway RE was at Longmore near Salisbury Plain during WW11).

29 June 1915 to 28 Jan 1919 discharged on sickness, was awarded the Silver War Medal.
Dear Ray, thanks for showing interest in the elusive Frank! It's good to have information verified! Sue.
 
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