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Poverty Line 1839 to 1900

The figures of deaths (post #22) due to bronchitis and pneumonia are dreadful. Many would have been avoided with better housing conditions and a better diet. I had bronchitis soon after I was born and it's only because I was fortunate enough to be kept in a room with a fire 24/7 that I survived. I can see how those figures stack up if you were living hand to mouth.

Re Nick's post 25. I can verify that. We have some in our family through the 1800s, makes it very difficult tracing ancestry. Some have the same second name, probably for the same reason
 
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The figures of deaths (post #22) due to bronchitis and pneumonia are dreadful. Many would have been avoided with better housing conditions and a better diet. I had bronchitis soon after I was born and it's only because I was fortunate enough to be kept in a room with a fire 24/7 that I survived. I can see how those figures stack up if you were living hand to mouth.

Re Nick's post 25. I can verify that. We have some in our family through the 1800s, makes it very difficult tracing ancestry. Some have the same second name, probably for the same reason
I had bronchitis and hooping cough when I was 4. I remember being kept inside fully clothed until it went away.
 
i had bronchitis and pneumonia very bad in the 50s the conditions we lived in was just dreadfull damp and germs spread by bugs the beds were always damp and smelly even though clean the ony treatment we had was home made like blackberry vinegar and a towel covered pot with hot water in it to try and clear my lungs. not nice at all
 
I think this is a wonderful project, however the accuracy of information regarding everyday people is sketchy at best. Regardless of what the census says. The census only reports what it is given and while it might be directionally correct it is not absolute.
Of course Richard, as I say on my methodology statement:

these can only be subjective and by no means can I state this will be ‘fact’ or concrete evidence that a particular family were in poverty or not, but using the information and data available, it does show a trend and for me, having already researched various individuals, to be able to understand their life’s further.


My aim is to highlight what is the poverty line, and how many households in a given street would be in poverty in 1880's. Of course the accuracy of census records can not be 100% guaranteed correct but I have though spent 15 years going through over 12,000 records looking at every single household and recording the data. I then produced a number of very complicated spreadsheets with various formulas to check the records addresses, names and occupations etc to see what was duplicated. I can say with full confidence there were not as many errors as you would think. You can see that if a father and his son of 15 for example both worked as a blacksmith, its safe to say that the son would not have earned as much as the father and actually was probably just an errand-boy, for me its how you read the information available.

For occupations alone it took me 2 years just to put together another spreadsheet of over 1100 different job type. I obtained these from researching a a lot of publications such as the 1909 labour department of the board of trade which published a report on standard time rates of wages and hours of labour entitled ‘Standard Time Rates of Wages’. I then created calculation's to allow for different time periods and the salary earning capacity differential between Men, women and children. For example women between 18 and 21 would earn on average 55% of a mans wage but over 21 this reduced to 50%.

If more people lived in a house than was recorded in the census, it did not necessarily mean that, that household's quality of life improved, it actually more often than not made it worse.

My apologies if I have rambled on a bit
 
i had bronchitis and pneumonia very bad in the 50s the conditions we lived in was just dreadfull damp and germs spread by bugs the beds were always damp and smelly even though clean the ony treatment we had was home made like blackberry vinegar and a towel covered pot with hot water in it to try and clear my lungs. not nice at all
That sounds the same as my mum, she had pneumonia and was sent for convalescence for 6 months. It does seem with other comments that the fallout from the quality of the housebuild construction of the mid 1800's was dreadful. I am going to start on the next phase of my project, which is colour marking the maps, I have completed a couple of sections and it really highlights the amount of industrial buildings and back to back's all crammed together and hardly any green spaces, no fresh air at all.
 
we have now edited the thread title to include the years andy is researching which is 1839 to 1900..however a lot of us remember the struggles of our grandparents and parents and so comments about this is acceptable on this thread..comments about todays way of life is not..

many thanks

the team
 
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That sounds the same as my mum, she had pneumonia and was sent for convalescence for 6 months. It does seem with other comments that the fallout from the quality of the housebuild construction of the mid 1800's was dreadful. I am going to start on the next phase of my project, which is colour marking the maps, I have completed a couple of sections and it really highlights the amount of industrial buildings and back to back's all crammed together and hardly any green spaces, no fresh air at all.
An esteemed past member of the forum. Phil was involved in the demolition of many of the houses in the 1960s/70s. He always said that , while there were many houses that were very well built and should have been retained, there were many that were apallingly built, with no significasnt foundations and flimsy walls that were just one brick thick, and it was surprising that many of the latter were still standing at that time
 
An esteemed past member of the forum. Phil was involved in the demolition of many of the houses in the 1960s/70s. He always said that , while there were many houses that were very well built and should have been retained, there were many that were apallingly built, with no significasnt foundations and flimsy walls that were just one brick thick, and it was surprising that many of the latter were still standing at that time
I can also confirm that this is correct. I worked in housing maintenance too and while there was a lot of very sound terraced housing there was also a lot that was quite shocking. We have come across half brick thick walls with no foundations, very inadequate roof structures and drainage.
 
I can also confirm that this is correct. I worked in housing maintenance too and while there was a lot of very sound terraced housing there was also a lot that was quite shocking. We have come across half brick thick walls with no foundations, very inadequate roof structures and drainage.

Below copied from my first book of a couple of articles, says it all really

The Birmingham Post, Tuesday February 28, 1884 - Artisans Dwellings Committee
In Devonshire Street there were some houses built on swampy ground; the mortar contained one part of lime to fifty parts of sand, and the “sand” was simply road sweepings, containing a lot of organic matter. It’s colour was that of dry mud, and when touched it fell out of the walls. The landlord, when applied to by the tenants to repair it, was stated to have said, “Oh, they must put some rags or papers in the holes”
Landlords didn't help TJ Bass Shadowland

“The housing of the poor” and “How to help the poor”. As we naturally expected, some of the landlords were by no means pleased, and wrote to us in no measured language about the way in which properties were exposed in the gleaming eye of public opinion. One owner declared: “That his tenants were like swine, and they all ought to be drowned” forgetting evidently that if that had taken place he might have lost more in rent in one week than he has spent in putting his property in repair.
 
I consider myself fortunate to not have experienced dreadful living conditions and poor sanitation. When you read Dickens there are graphic descriptions of conditions of how some people had to live. No wonder diseases spread fast and immunity to fight off disease was poor. As early as 1836, Dickens captured the desperate nature of living and sanitary conditions for some unfortunate families in Sketches by Boz :

"Wretched houses with broken windows patched with rags and paper: every room let out to a different family, and in many instances to two or even three - fruit and ‘sweet-stuff’ manufacturers in the cellars, barbers and red-herring vendors in the front parlours, cobblers in the back; a bird-fancier in the first floor, three families on the second, starvation in the attics, Irishmen in the passage, a ‘musician’ in the front kitchen, and a charwoman and five hungry children in the back one - filth everywhere - a gutter before the houses and a drain behind - clothes drying and slops emptying, from the windows; girls of fourteen or fifteen, with matted hair, walking about barefoot, and in white great-coats, almost their only covering; boys of all ages, in coats of all sizes and no coats at all; men and women, in every variety of scanty and dirty apparel, lounging, scolding, drinking, smoking, squabbling, fighting, and swearing.”

This was about London, but it would have been typical of many families. Dickens did much to highlight the dire problem in the early 1800s. The worst of it all was it was an endless cycle, impossible to get off without proper intervention. Hence why slum clearance had to be part of the solution.
 
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I consider myself fortunate to not have experienced dreadful living conditions and poor sanitation. When you read Dickens thre are graphic descriptions of conditions of how some people had to live. No wonder diseases spread fast and immunity to fight off disease was poor. As early as 1836, Dickens captured the desperate nature of living and sanitary conditions for some unfortunate families in Sketches by Boz :

"Wretched houses with broken windows patched with rags and paper: every room let out to a different family, and in many instances to two or even three - fruit and ‘sweet-stuff’ manufacturers in the cellars, barbers and red-herring vendors in the front parlours, cobblers in the back; a bird-fancier in the first floor, three families on the second, starvation in the attics, Irishmen in the passage, a ‘musician’ in the front kitchen, and a charwoman and five hungry children in the back one - filth everywhere - a gutter before the houses and a drain behind - clothes drying and slops emptying, from the windows; girls of fourteen or fifteen, with matted hair, walking about barefoot, and in white great-coats, almost their only covering; boys of all ages, in coats of all sizes and no coats at all; men and women, in every variety of scanty and dirty apparel, lounging, scolding, drinking, smoking, squabbling, fighting, and swearing.”

This was about London, but it would have been typical of many families. Dickens did much to highlight the dire problem in the early 1800s. The worst of it all was it was an endless cycle, impossible to get off without proper intervention. Hence why slum clearance had to be part of the solution.
You might have heard of Charles Booth, he produced a massive volume of works called Labour and the Life of People based on London. He is quite well known for creating the poverty colour map of London Streets, it s where I got inspiration from. What a hard life they lived and high proportion....
 
You might have heard of Charles Booth, he produced a massive volume of works called Labour and the Life of People based on London. He is quite well known for creating the poverty colour map of London Streets, it s where I got inspiration from. What a hard life they lived and high proportion....
Andy, I'm impressed by how much time and effort you have put into your project. I have only scratched the surface of your website so far. I come from a more linguistic approach to social history having worked on Dickens whose Sketches by Boz Viv quotes above.

I'm cautious about using the word 'poverty' as this is still used in the Victorian moral sense. So I'm doubtful of the merits of tabulating degrees of poverty especially if the lowest is termed 'worst'.

One of the issues of census data is that the inhabitants of a house may have illegally sub-let part of the property. They are not going to tell an official they have done this. I wonder where all the children are too?

You call a household a 'family', though looking at Snow Hill it is clear that some houses are occupied by draper's assistants with a housekeeper and servants? There were lots of servants in late Victorian B'ham, some would live in, but others lived out in the back-to-backs. Tracing the lodgers might be fruitful. Often an unmarried sister might help bring up her sister's children.

Income is a problem, because you have estimated it. I think that the public houses and some of the businesses would have had a higher income than you allow. Undoubtedly many households would have been poor and wealth was very unevenly distributed.

Finally what about central B'ham and the south side of the city? Do all the clerks live there? Do you intend to extend your mapping there?

I hope my response is welcome in refining your work. I know that over the years people have debated the merits of colour coded 'poverty mapping.' Sadly, though this university research was publicly funded, it isn't generally available to the public free of charge. (But that's another story.)

Anyway, despite my niggles and questions, I congratulate you on your progress and achievement. If you would like me to dig into the data of Snow Hill then encourage me to do so, this is where I found 'families' who are probably work colleagues in rented house. There are a number of interesting pubs too.

Derek
 
Hello Derek

Thats a very kind and thoughtful message and very welcome. You are correct on and unfortunately in some cases the figures have to be a guesstimate as, as you allude lies in the census was often made. I have seen instances where 3 sets of families with 3 'head of the family' have said they lived in one house but then the census jumps from say street 3 and then the next family is living at street 6. I decided to split the family into 3 different properties.

My project is solely to show how dramatically 1880's Birmingham changed and the health and industrialisation caused such massive disruption, with the wealthy moving to the suburbs and lovely green parks and the less wealthy having to stay in such poor conditions, economically, in living standards, in eating standards and in condition of health. To be able to show my grading system with 100% accuracy from the data available is not easy. Income was a problem and there are some anomalies and it might need tweaking (although to update 12000 records now, I am not sure I could this on my own again) I was though very careful to check what family members and needed to take a judgment call in some cases. ie I saw a surgeon, a living in a back to back? but also I don't have an income value for that, so I decided to put that person in the highest bracket.

For salaries, I did use quite a lot of publications and spent a fair time cross referencing, seeing the increase or decrease of salaries over a 10/20 year period. My methodology for income/expenditure I worked quite closely with Benjamin Seebohm Rowntree and Peter R. Shergold 'basket of goods' philosophy.

Lodgers is interesting, there are listed, borders, visitors and servants. Its impossible to know if a visitor was a friend, or helped with the family income. With servants we have a mixture of observations where the individual could have brought in to help with the family in a house and be given free lodging or paid a small income. A logical route for me was that if all people who lived at a property contributed to the the household income but then there would be an equal expenditure cost to take into consideration. If a servant is living in the household, does that person contribute the cost of food & fuel etc or does that person receive some sort of income. What did make sense was that if a person listed as servant as opposed to brother, sister or niece etc I put that person as a lodger and paying 1.4s to the family. This would make the family better off as a servants income would not cover the expenditure cost.

To sum up even though I think everybody knows what the quality of life was 150 years ago and although a long long time has been spent, I feel I have achieved some sort of confirmation in highlighting the situation of many families in Industrialised Birmingham. And yes, I would love to do central Birmingham and the South but I am 60 now and started when my children were children, they have been through Uni and left home now. Probably I will but not just yet. (What would help is if I could obtain the census records already on spreadsheets)

Please look into Snow Hill, all feedback is good and no negativity is taken on my side. Above is quite a long explanation but I think it might help in explaining to others my processes.

Andy
 
Andrew, as a historic researcher you have to be comfortable with not knowing.

Far too many people get bogged down in their quest seeking a subjective past. In reality the historic records are rife with errors and omissions, and perceptions of past events. Personal opinions of a past event are personal to that individual. We all witness events differently based on our education, background gender, religious views etc. You only have to listen to two people discussing a recent football match in the pub. Two complementary opinions, both possibly right.
 
Hello Derek

Thats a very kind and thoughtful message and very welcome. You are correct on and unfortunately in some cases the figures have to be a guesstimate as, as you allude lies in the census was often made. I have seen instances where 3 sets of families with 3 'head of the family' have said they lived in one house but then the census jumps from say street 3 and then the next family is living at street 6. I decided to split the family into 3 different properties.

My project is solely to show how dramatically 1880's Birmingham changed and the health and industrialisation caused such massive disruption, with the wealthy moving to the suburbs and lovely green parks and the less wealthy having to stay in such poor conditions, economically, in living standards, in eating standards and in condition of health. To be able to show my grading system with 100% accuracy from the data available is not easy. Income was a problem and there are some anomalies and it might need tweaking (although to update 12000 records now, I am not sure I could this on my own again) I was though very careful to check what family members and needed to take a judgment call in some cases. ie I saw a surgeon, a living in a back to back? but also I don't have an income value for that, so I decided to put that person in the highest bracket.

For salaries, I did use quite a lot of publications and spent a fair time cross referencing, seeing the increase or decrease of salaries over a 10/20 year period. My methodology for income/expenditure I worked quite closely with Benjamin Seebohm Rowntree and Peter R. Shergold 'basket of goods' philosophy.

Lodgers is interesting, there are listed, borders, visitors and servants. Its impossible to know if a visitor was a friend, or helped with the family income. With servants we have a mixture of observations where the individual could have brought in to help with the family in a house and be given free lodging or paid a small income. A logical route for me was that if all people who lived at a property contributed to the the household income but then there would be an equal expenditure cost to take into consideration. If a servant is living in the household, does that person contribute the cost of food & fuel etc or does that person receive some sort of income. What did make sense was that if a person listed as servant as opposed to brother, sister or niece etc I put that person as a lodger and paying 1.4s to the family. This would make the family better off as a servants income would not cover the expenditure cost.

To sum up even though I think everybody knows what the quality of life was 150 years ago and although a long long time has been spent, I feel I have achieved some sort of confirmation in highlighting the situation of many families in Industrialised Birmingham. And yes, I would love to do central Birmingham and the South but I am 60 now and started when my children were children, they have been through Uni and left home now. Probably I will but not just yet. (What would help is if I could obtain the census records already on spreadsheets)

Please look into Snow Hill, all feedback is good and no negativity is taken on my side. Above is quite a long explanation but I think it might help in explaining to others my processes.

Andy
Andy,
I appreciate your considerate and thoughtful reply. And especially your attitude to my comments. It has taken you years to build this which I am in awe of. Academics are trained to pull things apart, but we are less good at building them. I'm not your supervisor, nor anybody's supervisor now thankfully.

Ideally readers would like to drill through to the data to identify your surgeon, I appreciate this is probably impossible. Perhaps you can identify him and his address and we can see what emerges.

Thank you for your kind response and I'll have a play with Snow Hill.

It would be good to have your sources listed on your website and ideally linked to the method and data. Again, it's easy for me to say. Did you find any modern sources on 'poverty mapping'?

All the best,
Derek
 
Andy,
I appreciate your considerate and thoughtful reply. And especially your attitude to my comments. It has taken you years to build this which I am in awe of. Academics are trained to pull things apart, but we are less good at building them. I'm not your supervisor, nor anybody's supervisor now thankfully.

Ideally readers would like to drill through to the data to identify your surgeon, I appreciate this is probably impossible. Perhaps you can identify him and his address and we can see what emerges.

Thank you for your kind response and I'll have a play with Snow Hill.

It would be good to have your sources listed on your website and ideally linked to the method and data. Again, it's easy for me to say. Did you find any modern sources on 'poverty mapping'?

All the best,
Derek
Thats a good idea, I'll create a page and put all the sources, publications I used there. Next step apart from finishing colour coding the maps, was to go through the various characters and look more into them. Writers, artists, a few French people, what drew then to Brass street for example.

I didn't use any modern day poverty mapping.

Cheers
 
Andrew, as a historic researcher you have to be comfortable with not knowing.

Far too many people get bogged down in their quest seeking a subjective past. In reality the historic records are rife with errors and omissions, and perceptions of past events. Personal opinions of a past event are personal to that individual. We all witness events differently based on our education, background gender, religious views etc. You only have to listen to two people discussing a recent football match in the pub. Two complementary opinions, both possibly right.
You are not wrong there
 
and we did ours was down the rd away from the house it had a hurricane lamp hanging on the cistern in winter to stop it freezing.
some times dad would cut up old comics. and said it would give your bum a laugh
 
Have just completed and uploaded to website a list of all the occupations by sector for the 101 streets as well as a ranking list for all the sectors. No.1 Occupation Group is 'Unemployed'..this is records of people saying on the census there are out of work or unemployed. But apart from that the most Jobs are in the sector of ClothingTop 10 Occupations by Sector.jpg
 
Going forward if anybody are able to help me refine some of my data. Some occupations weekly income I found a little difficult to find, if anybody would be able to assist is source for me would be great. It's mainly the more professional jobs; a surgeon, optician and such. I could put a list together if there is of interest.

Also, I am probably going to do Central & South Birmingham Streets in 2024 (Wasn't but can't resist). would need all the census records though, does anybody have access to these?
 
Have just completed and uploaded to website a list of all the occupations by sector for the 101 streets as well as a ranking list for all the sectors. No.1 Occupation Group is 'Unemployed'..this is records of people saying on the census there are out of work or unemployed. But apart from that the most Jobs are in the sector of ClothingView attachment 186935
Andy, how did you discriminate between metal and iron and steel trades and were the boxes in the next category made from metal/steel?
 
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