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Electric Trams

oldMohawk said:
He looks like an 'office type' to me, sent to sort out the problem ...
Tram drivers (motormen) certainly wore soft peaked hats with a badge same as the bus drivers.
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Posts 509 and 527 show the stiff caps that motormen wore, the same as inspectors.


Bob
 
oldMohawk said:
After tram operations ceased in July 1953 many trams were run to a depot to be scrapped. Tram 619 with it's side advert partially ripped off appears to be stopped on the turn into Park Rd. There are some unusual curved markings on the road near the track but they may be nothing. Local folk look on and the chap wearing bicycle clips doesn't seem too interested in whatever the lady in the dark green coat is saying to him.
Nice pram with chromium plated mudguards ...:)
View attachment 127346
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Park Lane Junction.jpg
oldMohawk said:
After tram operations ceased in July 1953 many trams were run to a depot to be scrapped. Tram 619 with it's side advert partially ripped off appears to be stopped on the turn into Park Rd. There are some unusual curved markings on the road near the track but they may be nothing. Local folk look on and the chap wearing bicycle clips doesn't seem too interested in whatever the lady in the dark green coat is saying to him.
Nice pram with chromium plated mudguards ...:)
View attachment 127346
Click to expand...

This the only picture I've got of this junction as you can see it is a complicated junction.
This junction had a single line connecting curve between the tracks in Park Rd an Victoria Rd because the streets were so narrow tram approached the curve to run in the wrong lane in to Victoria Rd

Looking through many of my tram books I have a picture tramcar 620 with the 78 Pype Hayes destination showing being diverted from the Lichfield Rd up Victoria Rd on the day of the change over to buses July 1953.

Trams were run till about Midday on Birmingham bound services passengers was taken off the tram at Sandy Lane and transferred to awaiting buses to continue journey into town.
This makes it possible that this picture was taken on the final day, and is not coming from Six ways but from Lichfield Rd up Victoria Rd to the left of the picture you just see the side if the Cinema the Victoria Picture House.
With regards to the male being to young they wasn't all old men as motormen my Granddad retired weeks before services changed to buses his son was Chief Inspector at Witton Depot and remained at Witton till it's closure, transferring to Bus depot at Hockley both were both named George Cross.

With regards to hats they did wear them at all times but they also take them off and if it was the July 1953 from my memory it was a lovely warm sunny day.
 
Interesting pic Ray it certainly shows some complicated wiring above the junction.
On this 1914 map, the top of the map is towards Witton and the left towards Six Ways.
I've marked (pink) the position of the tram (in post#534) turning into Park Road (towards Witton) and the blue spot marks where the onlookers were standing. The corner building which is behind the onlookers has a gap behind it and that shows on the map.
Tram.jpg
 
Phil,

If we could get that sort of money for the use of our old pictures, we'd all be very happy. BHF would be self-financing! :)

Maurice
 
Hi Maurice,

The price does seem rather steep for an old street photo. They do have some other interesting Birmingham street photos ... at a price! I could have uploaded a 'screenshot' of what I was looking at on my laptop but the link shows the same.

Phil
 
oldMohawk said:
After tram operations ceased in July 1953 many trams were run to a depot to be scrapped. Tram 619 with it's side advert partially ripped off appears to be stopped on the turn into Park Rd. There are some unusual curved markings on the road near the track but they may be nothing. Local folk look on and the chap wearing bicycle clips doesn't seem too interested in whatever the lady in the dark green coat is saying to him.
Nice pram with chromium plated mudguards ...:)
View attachment 127346
Click to expand...
The mystery marks are the steel markers to show the designated crossing areas of the intersection. These were either with traffic lights or Belisha Beacons. This was before Zebra Crossings.
What caught my eye at first was the B57 Bomber flying over in the top left hand corner !
Cheers Tim
 
tim eborn said:
The mystery marks are the steel markers to show the designated crossing areas of the intersection. These were either with traffic lights or Belisha Beacons. This was before Zebra Crossings.
What caught my eye at first was the B57 Bomber flying over in the top left hand corner !
Cheers Tim
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Tim,
The small square studs are still used today at traffic light intersections where no zebra crossing exists. The curious referred to in previous posts are the circular ones adjacent to the tram tracks.
 
oldMohawk said:
I wondered if anyone else would spot it ... I often see them flying over in old tram pics ...:D
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Now if it was wartime it could be said that they were the Luftwaffe following the tracks to locate certain factories. Axis and Allied pilots did use rivers, canals,railway lines and large churches for navigation purposes. :D
 
Went around the Proof house yesterday. Apparently, the Luftwaffe were very interested in that and followed the canal to find it. There were a lot of bombs aimed at it, though only some incendiaries actually hit it. But Typhoo probably got one aimed at them, and another aimed there was probably the one that did not explode and was found again in 2017 nearby
 
oldMohawk said:
On a website which sells stock images there is an image of a tram turning from Victoria Rd into Park Rd in 1950. The images are watermarked and use restricted so I won't upload the image here. If you want to see it click the link below. The image can obviously be saved in a computer ...:rolleyes:
https://www.alamy.com/birmingham-co...pv=1&stamp=2&imageid=54D5F4D0-6A12-4366-9A6C-
Click to expand...
The particular tram, car 320, was built in 1911 and survived until 1950. It is headed for Witton tram depot. It is seen in the post war livery, with modern numerals and cobalt blue on all lower parts of the body. It is pretty good shape as it was not long repainted as a 1948 photograph shows the car in the pre-war (WW2) livery. The photograph, in the link, is dated 1950, however the Perry Barr 6 and Witton 3X services ceased in December 1949, buses running route 39 commenced Ist. January 1950.
 
With reference to posts#534/544, the Victoria Rd - Park Rd junction seems to have been a favourite place for tram photos with two of them shown below. Both photos show the complicated wiring above the junction.
A No5 Lozells tram 560 travelling on Victoria Rd towards Six Ways and about to cross the junction.
SixVicPark.jpg

Another No 5 Lozells tram 562 on its way in the opposite direction towards the Lichfield Rd.
ParkVic.jpg
 
Two great photos of sister cars which I date between 1946 and September 1950. They are in the post WW2 livery and the 5 route ceased in September 1950, replaced by 40A bus. The 5 was unusual as it ran east - west from Lozells to Gravelly Hill. Other routes usually ran from the city to the suburbs. Cars 560/2 were built 1913/14 and were open balconied. They were modified to the style in the photographs between 1926 and 1930. The cars carried on on the north-eastern routes until system closure in 1953.
 
oldMohawk said:
Interesting pic Ray it certainly shows some complicated wiring above the junction.
On this 1914 map, the top of the map is towards Witton and the left towards Six Ways.
I've marked (pink) the position of the tram (in post#534) turning into Park Road (towards Witton) and the blue spot marks where the onlookers were standing. The corner building which is behind the onlookers has a gap behind it and that shows on the map.
View attachment 127371
Click to expand...
OM
Excuse my ignorance I cannot remember where Victoria Road/Park Road were and I should do as Witton & Six Ways are mentioned and that was a route by bus I travelled regularly, can you minimise your map to show their location in relation to Six Ways and Witton please if it is possible. I can find Victoria Road on Google maps, but Park Road seems to be a truncated road off Lichfield Road and then a Park Road North of Victoria Road, I do realise that it is some years since I traversed these areas, but presumably the swathe of new expressways and factories have cut the area in half as it was and also taken out houses etc.
Bob
 
Park road ran from Aston Cross to Aston Park ( aston hall) and ended at Trinity road/Aston Hall lane...…………...Mal
 
A slight 'where is it' with this one as tram 597 runs on a damp murky day. The route number (not too clear) could be 5 or 6 and I'm opting for 5 which could put the tram somewhere on the Lozells Road. There is a Birmingham Co-op imediately right and a building with James & Neale on it further along. If it is not on Lozells Rd it could be somewhere on Victoria Road.
No5tram.jpg
 
oldMohawk said:
A slight 'where is it' with this one as tram 597 runs on a damp murky day. The route number (not too clear) could be 5 or 6 and I'm opting for 5 which could put the tram somewhere on the Lozells Road. There is a Birmingham Co-op imediately right and a building with James & Neale on it further along. If it is not on Lozells Rd it could be somewhere on Victoria Road.
View attachment 127409
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OM
1. You are a genius and so so clever, if only I was young and knew how to use my computer to such effect. Thanks very much for the map that has solved my queries.
2. James Neale & Sons, remembered the name from my days at Cannings, they had plating plant from us and discovered that Google the name and there is a wealth of information. They were motor parts suppliers, windscreens, lights, interior rear view mirrors. The items on Google devoted to them are very interesting and so are the images that appear on the Google page. However they were in Graham Street, on the edge of the Jewellery Quarter, so either it is another James Neale or I am missing something and don't know my tram routes, but as far as I can see Graham Street is nowhere near the 5 or 6 tram route. I now sit here waiting for the corrections to come in, but it is a late 40s/early 50s picture, I can tell from the tram. I have a great affection for public transport, particularly the way buses and trams were painted before the modernists got hold of them and spoilt them with garish swooshes and multicolours or even the latest trend of route coloured buses, Reading is a leader in that field, but even in the West Midlands National Express have the old red, white and blue, the newer 'I am almost a Midland Red bus' and the even newer all singing all dancing Platinum, express, wi-fi fitted double deckers, I have travelled X1 and X10, however to stop meandering away from the subject, there is something about the old black and white misty terraced house street pictures of trams that is almost artistic in its content and as for those embellished by Old Mohawks paint by numbers computer system, what can I say. (Nothing if you have any sense). The interesting thing about these pictures, is that none seem to be in any of the many Birmingham Tram books that I own.
Bob
 
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Bob,
The company name on the building is James & Neale, which may clear up the matter. I go with route 5 and just mention that car 597 was a product f 1920/21 and is in the post 1946 livery. The batch (587 - 636) were withdrawn 1949-53.
 
We have a thread 'Lozells Road Co-op' but photos in it were lost in the 2011 hack. I had to go digging in Coppermine to find the pic below and it generally matches the Co-op building in the tram pic in #560 . I'm still do not know exactly where the building was in Lozells Rd, but at least it was there ...:)
co-op2520lozells.jpg
 
James & Neale were at 3 & 3A Lozells Road, next to a co-op. the co-op is not given a number in Kellys but is between 1 & 3 , so must be 1A on map

map c 1950 showing 3 Lozells Road.jpg
 
It's that Park Road turn again! As mentioned in #544 one of the crew would have had to get off and change the points before slowly driving the tram round the sharp corner. The driver looks a bit tense while the lady conductor is gesturing at that tail gating lorry.
ParkRdCurve.jpg
 
Tramcar 715, built 1925 and lasting until 1952 is in the post ww2 colours but still has old style numerals. I can't decipher the destination blind but believe it might read Short Heath 78 or Pype Hayes 79? I think this might be around 1946/7, the traffic signals still have white paint on them, particularly the bases.
 
One thing that all these photos of Victoria Road and Park road show is how tight the turn was for those trams which had to make the turn as they have to cut the corner on the wrong side of the road. This brings me to ask the question, did trams going in the other direction take a different route as this is only a single track turn?
 
From my information David it was a single turn from the westerly (to Lozells) track onto the northbound track in the direction of Witton depot. There was a crossover line from this northbound track southwards to the city bound track. Another crossover existed in the eastern section of Park Road running from the Lichfield Road direction track westwards towards the Victoria Road/Park Road junction.
Addendum:
I notice that Post 555 shows the Victoria Road crossover quite well.
 
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DavidGrain said:
One thing that all these photos of Victoria Road and Park road show is how tight the turn was for those trams which had to make the turn as they have to cut the corner on the wrong side of the road. This brings me to ask the question, did trams going in the other direction take a different route as this is only a single track turn?
Click to expand...
There is a track layout on a c1914 map in post#545 which seems to match the layout in the photos. It looks like they also probably had to change the trolley pole on to a different wire. Then after they had got into Park Rd they would have to put the points back to the normal route.
 
Here is an early postcard photo (possible date pre 1920) which looks down Park Road towards the Witton direction. There appear to be no tracks visible in Victoria Rd on the right where the tram in #534 was coming from. There is however a hint of overhead wires on the right but not certain.
Park-Road-Aston-in-the-1900s.jpg
 
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