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Allen Charles

A

aimac21

master brummie
Would be very grateful if someone could please look up a marriage at Edgbaston. Date : 28th March, 1836 between Charles Allen and Ann Best. Any extra information such as ages of bride and groom and indenties of witnesses ?
 
ive found the marriage 28 mar 1836 st. bartholemew edgbaston but the only extra info is witnessed by james harris.
 
in 1841 this could be them in bham (going on age of children)

charles allen 25 brasscaster
ann 25
ann 5
emma 2

and if thats the correct one this is the 1851 census which would be more accurate for ages

1851 fleet st. bham

charles allen 35 caster
ann 33 domestic
ann jane 14 glass toy maker
emma 12 glass toy maker
elizabeth 9
john 7
jane 4
william 2 all born bham
 
Could he be Charles Henry Allen, born 5th March 1816, baptised 10th June 1816 (St Phillip's). If so, he was a twin and one of six children of Thomas Allen and Susanna Lane.

I have the dates for the siblings if you need them.
 
Leslam thanks for this. Yes, Thomas and Susanna are one possibility for the parents and James and Mary Ann (Hand) are another. I can't decide between them. All I do know is that Thomas is not a name used in my family, though Henry is. I don't have any details about the children of either couple so would be very grateful if you could supply the names or dates of Charles Henry's siblings if you have them. They might provide a clue ?
 
All the following are from IGI. I have only verified Daniel Edwin Allen as he was one I was interested in.

The following were the children of Thomas Allen and Susanna Lane (married 4 Jul 1813, St Thomas’). All entries are from batch C041797 or C041796
Thomas William Allen, born 4 Apr 1814, bapt 19 Oct 1814, St Phillip’s
Joseph James Allen, born 5 Mar 1816, bapt 10 Jun 1816, St Phillip’s
Charles Henry Allen, born 5 Mar 1816, bapt 10 Jun 1816, St Phillip’s
Daniel Edwin Allen, born 13 Jan 1819, bapt 8 Feb 1819, St Phillip’s
Ann Jemima Allen, born 29 Dec 1820, bapt 30 Jul 1822, St Phillip’s
Mary Susanna Allen, born 12 Apr 1823, bapt 28 Jul 1823, St Phillip’s

The following were children of James (Smart) Allen and Mary Ann Hands(married 13 Nov 1814, St Martin's). All are from batch C010723
Charles Allen, born 26 Nov 1815, bapt 7 Jun 1816, St Martin’s
Phebe Allen, born12 Apr 1815, bapt 26 Dec 1818, St Martin’s
Mary Elizabeth Allen, born 2 Jun 1823, bapt 6 Jan 1824, St Martin’s
The six year gap between 1818 and 1824 is surprising. I would have expected at least one more child in there, but without going through the registers, this is the best I can do.

Hope that this is useful to you
 
Leslam thank you so very much, I'm so grateful to you. What interesting findings (for me at least !). I shall have to do some research now. This really is an excellent forum, I'm most impressed by the kindness of you all.
 
Hello

I have the marriage of James Smart Allen as him marrying Mary Ann Butcherd 22 Nov 1821 at Aston. Could the James Allen/Mary Hands be a different couple???? Allen is a very common name. I'm thankful my lot use Smart Allen :)

James & Mary Smart Allen had 4 children Emma, James, Jane & Ellen.
 
Hello Brumiegal

You are right about the surname Allen. Makes things very difficult :confused: However, if you look back a couple of posts on this thread you'll find a message from leslam (April 30th) that shows that James Smart Allen had been married before and to a Mary Ann Hands. They had a son Charles in 1816 and I've been trying to discover what happened to him. I'm a descendant of a Charles Allen born Birmingham 1816 so you'll understand my curiosity:)
 
Hiya

John Smart Allen was bapt 1794 his parents were John Allen & Sarah Smart.

Yes i can see your need to discover more about Charles.

The Smart Allens were glass cutters.

Do you know what your Charles did for a living? Do you have him on the census, perhaps it will offer some clues i can tie in with my lot.
 
sorry John & James are brother getting myself confused here!!! :rolleyes:

James b1796 was also the son of John Allen & Sarah Smart.
 
Thanks - yes my Charles was a brass caster by trade. Casters and jewellers seemed to figure among his descendants. Does that info provide any clues ?!
 
In 1841 James was a glass cutter living in Aston St. with wife mary & 3 children emma & james aged 12 & 14 also jane age 6mths!!! :rolleyes:

Any earlier children born to a previous marriage would have long flown the nest!

Do you have your Charles in 1841?
 
Oh and yes I've got him on the 1841 and 1851 censuses with daughters, Ann Jane and Emma first, followed by Elizabeth, John James, Jane and William.
 
no parents staying for a sleepover then!

This is going to be tricky. James b1796 would have been 20 yrs old if he married mary Hands in 1816.

Ok sorry for dealy.

I have just checked on Mary Elizabeth Allen 1823 her father was definitely James Smart Allen.

I reckon we've cracked it!!!
 
Ha ha - tricky is an understatement lol I'm probably being a bit thick but how does Mary Elizabeth enter the story ?! Anyway, am fairly convinced that there are two lots of James and Mary Anns all about the same age. I just can't see two marriages on IGI.
 
i am going through the igi at the moment too.

Mary Elizabeth was quoted 30th April.

I am trying to piece together family groups. There is a james/mary lot baptised at St Phillips. The St. Martin's group. Then the Smart Allen at Cannon st. All around the same time.

Will keep looking hopefully something will turn up. But i'm begining to think they are different families. But then i get swayed :rolleyes: with your Charles & his children names. Bu then Charles doesn't feature in my family:explode: names!!!!

All good fun!!!! LOL;)
 
Thank you so much - am really grateful. I have looked and looked at the various permutations until I could explode:rolleyes: so if you have any bright ideas or findings I'll be thrilled :D
 
ok here goes

James Allen to Mary DAWSON at Aston Juxta 1794 not too far away from the other churches but mnaybe a little too early for your Charles.

mary ann evans also at Aston juxta but 1823 :explode:

mary twigg 1804 at st phillips :rolleyes:

I think Mary Hands at St Martins :)

We could really do with the original record. Hopefully it will have more details, hopefully an occupation. ;)
 
Okay that's really thorough:) I never went that far back - food for thought. That Mary Ann Evans marriage is one I'm aware of - to add yet another ingredient to the pot that marriage produced several children with names used often in my family, also one was named John James (exactly the same name as my own ancestor) this James plus family appear in 1841, 1851 and 1861 censuses. To cut a long story short I think maybe this was a second marriage and that all Mary Ann Evans children were half siblings of my Charles. This is getting tortuous I know lol and you've probably drifted off to sleep with boredom ! Anyway, if I'm right, I just need to establish that this James was previously married to Charles' mother. Where is the marriage though ?! Oh, and the censuses show this James as born circa 1794. What do you think ?
 
BTW you seem pretty convinced that Mary Ann Hands was not married to James Smart Allen. Am I right ? If that's correct, your James Smart married late for those times ? Perhaps he was a bit of a lad ;)
 
I have emailed my newly found cousin (found last night to be precise)! for the original marriage.

This is what he has James married Mary Ann BUTCHERD on 22 November 1821 in Aston, Warwickshire. The address was: St Peter & Paul. Groom of Birmingham St Martin, bride of the parish, by banns, witnesses Mary Smart ALLEN, Jane BUTCHERD.

No mention of him being a widower. I'm not sure if the record would. I have some old records that state bapt/spin. I'll let you know as soon as i get a reply. :)
 
My concern is that the other records for the family use Smart. All the sons are glass cutters!
Searching is also difficult there are so many Allens!! Not all records are available online @ familysearch. Also some border staffs such as handsworth not too far from the city. I don't have access to to the originals.
I remain openmined as i have discovered in the past new things often turn up & upset the apple cart.

On the other hand it seems to fit in:rolleyes: the census' really don't help

genealogy - a work in progress!!!!
 
No problem:)
If it is the same james it means we are related!!! so i'm really interested to know if we are barking up the same tree;)
 
Indeed:grinsmile: Gosh, it's a pity they couldn't have used a bit more originality when dishing out the christian names:explode:!!
 
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