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WW1 help please.

Sparkhill Boy

Sparkhill Boy

master brummie
I'm trying to find the history of DAVID RICHARD WILLIAMS. When he joined up it was with the 1st Irish Life Guards. He has a variety of medals and allegedly either the George Cross or George Medal neither of which I can confirm, (the medal being missing). He also was awarded the O.B.E. and I have the medal.
As far as I can tell he was a Captain at the time of these awards his service number being 62364.
Once again, he allegedly became Colonel in Chief of The Gurkha Regiment.
You would think it would be easy to research but I am having serious trouble.
Please can anyone help?
 
There's a few things to comment on here, sparkhill, and I hope they will help your research.

First, British officers in WW1 did not have numbers. This came in from 1920. 62364 was the number of an officer named G. Cutts.

Second, there is no such regiment as the 1st Irish Life Guards. It could be the Irish Guards (an infantry regiment) or the 1st Life Guards (a cavalry regiment).

Next, the George Cross and George Medal did not exist before September 1940.

EDIT/UPDATE: got him.

Sapper 62634 David Richard Williams, Royal Engineers. Landed in France 23 August 1915. Later became a Lieutenant in the Irish Guards, attached to the 1st Life Guards (quite a coincidence, and unusual). Address just after the Great War was Oak Villa, Pencold, nr Bridgend in South Wales. Should give you something to build on.
 
Thank you Chris, great help. I have his record card which gives his number as 62364. Also 2 medals with him shown as Capt but no service number.
The history ties together exactly, together with his home address at Pencoed. Can you suggest wher I go to find info on the OBE?
Could he have been awarded the GC or GM in the 2nd war, I do not have his date of birth.
Many thanks, Graham
 
The OBE should be announced in the London Gazette (which is online and searchable, but the search engine is terribly iffy).

He will have an army service record and the good news is that officers records have, in general, survived. Assuming he served after 1921 it will still be held by the MOD and a copy can be got from the Veterans Agency if you can satisfy their kinship requirements.
 
hi chris
I must comment on your research, firstly to enter a corps and then transfer to the foot guards is unheard of, secondly to enter a corps as a private and attain officer rank also unprecidented even in war time to attain officer rank in the foot guards at this time of social status also unprecidented, and for an officer in the foot guards to be seconded to a cavalary regiment also within the house hold division also unprecidented, this individuals service seems totally bizarre can you perhaps find out more??
regards
paul stacey
 
It is certainly unusual. The details are all from his campaign medal index card - it would be very interesting to see his service record.

To make life even more interesting I have just found that he was appointed as a Lieutenant of the Royal Engineers (number 161728) on 29 April 1941. He had already once retired with the rank of Captain.

Between the wars he owned a company, "Captain D. R. Williams & Co" which is describes as an electrical engineer and contractor, at Portcawl. It went into administration in 1935/6. Have to be a little careful with that one, though, as another D. R. Williams had been with the South Wales Borderers - but it seems a likely connection.

I've also found a D. R. Williams with an MBE, but he was a Lieutenant-Commender in the Royal Navy in 1949.

I haven't yet been able to confirm the Irish Guards / Life Guards connection from online sources, but the Army List would do so.
 
hi chris
It's all according when he retired, onto the officer list , his rank remains substancive for 2 years if not recalled. On volunteering say for war time service he would revert to the next rank back until retrained, one other comment is that the Irish guards were formed in 1900, for replacements for loss's during the Boer war and I do not know their recruiting strategy during war time, but I do know that the three older foot guard regiments, Grenadier, Coldstream, Scots, would not have entertained officer replacement outside their preferential system, i.e, School. university, familley,(usually the arostocrecey and minor royals) and most importantly, personal disposable income, around £6000 per annum in the 1914/18 period, they had to be dragged screaming and kicking into accepting officers during the national service phase of short term commission OCTU deployment and I think it was not a pleasant time for men from middle class life, some were even barred from dining in the mess, on ceremonial occasions.
regards
paul
 
Hey you guys are doing a tremendous job and I'm only sorry I don't have your military knowledge. I have yet more info from his surviving son, which I hope to add later today or tomorrow.
What an amazing story is unravelling from an ex miner. Yes he had an electrical company in Porthcawl. More details to follow
Graham
 
More info onDavid Richard Williams.
Born 11.4.1889 Tremadoc, Ffestiniog. (No record on Ancestry)
Parents David Williams and Ann Hughes.
Married 1933 to Lillwyn Lewis, (no record on Ancestry, Lillwynmaybe second name)
1914 entered Army Sapper in Irish Guards.
Earned commision at Ypres or on the Somme. Attained Major Irish Guards.
In second half of WW1 was equery to Prince of Wales. Uniform buttons show fleur De Lys emblem.
Between 1918 and 1930 something, he earned George V medal Kurdistan engraved Lieut D R Williams and George V Kaisar -I-Hind engraved Capt D R Williams. We think during that time he was attached to the Gurkhas.
He also hold the Croix De Guerre.
In 1933 he was in Irac as C.O. of a Gurkha regiment and was wounded. He was the C.O. of the 1st 10th Gurkha Regiment.
Demobbed after the Gurkhas then recalled in 1939. Between 1934 and 1939 he had an electrical business in Porthcawl.
1939 joined Royal Engineers and based in Cumberland.
1940-1947 in Edinburgh firstly as Assistant Commander Royal Engineers Scotland, teh Deputy Commander and finally Commander.
Left Army in 1947.
He holds an O.B.E. which is not engraved with his name on a dark plain purple ribbon, (Ican find no record of this). It may be something to do with the design of a pipeline between the I.O.W. and France for D.Day landings (classified).
Any help with this would be greatly appreciated by his descendant Grandson.
 
I didn't get a great deal of time to do this, but did manage to check the WW1 period.

The Army List confirms that he was commissioned as a Second Lieutenant of the Irish Guards on 30 January 1918 and promoted to Lieutenant (1st Battalion) on 30 July 1919. (That implies that any ranks higher than that in the WW1 period were on an Acting basis only).

He disappears from the Army List between May 1920 and January 1921, so if your notes about his between-the-wars career are accurate he must have rejoined at some point.
 
Hi Sparkhill,

Just noticed that you haven't been able to find a birth record for David on Ancestry. I have found the following. Any good?

David Richard Williams - Ffestiniog - 1889 AMJ quarter ref 11b 400.

Suzanne
 
Many thanks Chris for your time to look for this man.
He has a medal for Afganistan NWF 1919 engraved in his name.
We know he was recalled in 1939, after his electrical business.
Where do I look now for his WW2 history?
 
Thank you Suzanne, it may well be him. If I can tie in another relative to that area it will confirm your findings.
Many thanks, Graham
 
Hi Graham

Just found a possible marriage but not 1933 it's 1923! Could this be it?

DAVID R WILLIAMS
LILWEN LEWIS
1923 JFM quarter ref 11a 1232 BRIDGEND, GLAMORGAN.

Suzanne:)
 
Suzzanne, what a star. I've been looking for this wedding for hours. Didn't know how to spell the wretched name have tried always! Now I know I'm 10 years to late!
What frustration you have ended.

Thank you, thank you.............Graham
 
My pleasure Graham!:)

I did find a couple of possible births but unless you know their children's names?
David R Williams 1923 Bridgend
Gwenllian M Williams 1923 Bridgend
Obviously can't be both but perhaps you have more details.

Suzanne
 
This could be a different family. David (as far as we Know) only had two brothers George and William, not known whether older or younger.
Ffestiniog is a long way from Bridgend so don't know when he moved down.
Over to you superstar.
Graham
 
The best thing you could possibly do would be to obtain a copy of his service record from the Veterans Agency. Even having a Indian General Service Medal with the 1919 clasp is a bit difficult to understand, given his postings.
 
Suzanne. Which search site are you using to find these details please.
I use Ancestry but seem to miss the information.
Graham,
 
Hi Graham

I'm using Ancestry which I find to be brilliant most of the time. I've missed stuff that others have found for me. Are you still unable to find the birth for David R Williams then?

Suzanne
 
Have found him now I'm in the right decade!!
Both Davids and Lilwens deaths are still evading me, as are her brothers details.
Graham
 
So George and William are Lilwen's brothers? Thought you meant they were David Richard Williams' brothers?

Suzanne
 
In the 1891 welsh census David and Anne Williams are living at 66 chapel street Portmadoc with Anne's sister and brothers (Hughes'). David R Williams is aged 2. No other boys mentioned so perhaps he was the eldest. Yet to find them in the 1901.
David the father is down as being born in Lancaster, Liverpool in 1862. His trade is a plumber. Does this fit?

Suzanne
 
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