Winter Gardens, Old Square..... a conundrum..?

[Dennis Williams]

OK….an old query …. ever since I became interested in the proposed Winter Gardens in Old Square, I have pondered the first picture that tweaked my buttons….it is/was captioned “Winter Gardens, Corporation Street”…… and has been shown many times since on numerous Brum Pics sites and blogs….and I wondered why such a lovely building would not have been photographed or mentioned more, if indeed it was indeed a real building in Corporation Street….was it a “falsie” I wondered…?



Part of it does mimic part of the bottom of the Cobden Hotel in Corporation Street….but I’m sure it’s not that, for the upper storeys of the Hotel Building bear no resemblance to those in the supposed Corporation Street pic….



However, close study of buildings in St Mark’s Square (see print), in Venice however, does suggest to me at least that the Corporation Street photo might well be from that Venice Palace! I’ve marked the relevant bits that seem to maybe conform in the last picture ?……Has anyone any thoughts or information to shed any light on this conundrum….. ?

 

[MWS]

There's an article in the Daily Post (22 Feb 1893) that says that the company built a temporary pavilion and then started on a hotel (unfinished at time of article).

 

[Vivienne14]

It existed in 1894 (as a place for exhibitions?) as the Tussards were involved in a legal case where they tried to exhibit a waxwork of an alleged murderer at the Winter Palace Pavilion. Viv.

 

[Vivienne14]

Some more info. The Pavilion was being demolished and was finished off by a storm in 1894. The Winter Gardens Pavilion was an iron pavilion which was intended as part of a more ambitious project (by the Winter Gardens and Hotel Co) that doesn't seem to have secured full business support.

At the time if the storm which destroyed it the plot was being prepared for the building of a drapery business. Viv.Source: British Newspaper Archive

 

[Vivienne14]

Having just read all that I’d never heard of I t before ! Seems to have become a white elephant. Thanks Dennis, interesting piece of lost Old Square history . Viv.

 

[Dennis Williams]

Having just read all that I’d never heard of I t before ! Seems to have become a white elephant. Thanks Dennis, interesting piece of lost Old Square history . Viv.

Bless you all....Brum History sleuthery wins once more!

 

[Vivienne14]

The whole project seems to have been fraught with problems. Firstly there was a struggle with the Salvation Army who claimed to have originally bid on the land, but it was effectively ignored by the planning committee. Sounds like councillors were more interested in what a ‘winter garden’ could add to the Corporation Street Improvement scheme. Chamberlain opened the Winter Gardens in 1890.

Once started there was an excessive ground rent cost and incomplete building works to deal with. It all sounds like generally poor planning and lack of finance. The iron pavilion was supposed to be temporary. The project vision was for a winter garden, shops and an hotel on the site. Some shops were let, but not all and part of the Hotel was built by 1893. The bailiffs took over in 1893. I expect it never opened again as a winter garden and hotel. The final blow to the whole project (excuse pun) was the storm that blew down the Pavilion in 1894. Viv.

Presumably the whole of the shops and hotel were later let. Viv.

 

[Astoness]

Bless you all....Brum History sleuthery wins once more!

just goes to show dennis that if folk come to this forum we never stop learning about the serious side of the history of birmingham...found this a very interesting read

lyn

 

[Dennis Williams]

just goes to show dennis that if folk come to this forum we never stop learning about the serious side of the history of birmingham...found this a very interesting read

lyn

Cheers lyn...J'agree some lots....but I still wonder precisely what that photo was about? Was it the "pavillion" that blew down? Or a fake photo of the Venice building?

 

[Vivienne14]

Could it have been a publicity image for the ‘Venice’ exhibition held at the Pavilion ? The report below in the Birmingham Daily Post gives details of the exhibition.

Other possibilities. Maybe it was the Olympia ‘Venice’ exhibition. Or maybe it was the incomplete main building but shown ‘doctored’ in the photo. Without details of the layout of the site at the time it’s hard tell.

The article says “the front of the Pavilion is being converted into a representation of the Doge’s palace”. So is it that shown in the photo ?

Alternatively, as you say Dennis, a complete fake. The quality of the photo makes it difficult to tell, although I must admit some parts of the building look unreal. Is there a date for the photo ? It could be possible to work out more precisely which parts of the building had actually been built at the date of the image. (The exhibition opened Whit Monday 1892. The Pavilion was blown down in Feb 1894 at which time the project’s fate seems to have been sealed. So a 2 year timeframe possibly ?)

Viv.

 

[Dennis Williams]

Could it have been a publicity image for the ‘Venice’ exhibition held at the Pavilion ? The report below in the Birmingham Daily Post gives details of the exhibition.

Other possibilities. Maybe it was the Olympia ‘Venice’ exhibition. Or maybe it was the incomplete main building but shown ‘doctored’ in the photo. Without details of the layout of the site at the time it’s hard tell.

The article says “the front of the Pavilion is being converted into a representation of the Doge’s palace”. So is it that shown in the photo ?

Alternatively, as you say Dennis, a complete fake. The quality of the photo makes it difficult to tell, although I must admit some parts of the building look unreal. Is there a date for the photo ? It could be possible to work out more precisely which parts of the building had actually been built at the date of the image. (The exhibition opened Whit Monday 1892. The Pavilion was blown down in Feb 1894 at which time the project’s fate seems to have been sealed. So a 2 year timeframe possibly ?)

Viv.
View attachment 165700

Oh you genius! I think this is a very likely answer.......we will never know for sure, of course, but hats off for this one...Brilliant, as per...lovr your work!!!!

Den

 

[Volker]

Although it seems like I am more than one and a half years late for joining the discussion and in addition to that, being from Germany is not helping that issue at all. I am glad that I found this site and this discussion. I just came across the "Venice in Birmingham" topic two days ago while doing some additional research on my actual topic - the "Venice in London" spectacle. I was impressed and surely surprised to learn that Birmingham had a very similar exhibition - although obviously smaler in size - compared to London.
Being an architect and researcher, at the moment I try to gather all the information and images about the very first "Fake Venice" - the one in London. While I was positive until two days ago that the very next fake Venice on the timeline would be the "Venice in Vienna" in the famous Prater, now I know, it was Birmingham! What a nice surprise.
From my first impression about the image of the facade I do believe that this is not a fake but a real picture, and that the designers of the exhibition used printed fabric to mimic the famous venitian architecture to lure people into the building. It is possible that the design of the ground level, the arches and columns were already similar to the italian originals. As mentioned before, because of the typical architectural styles of that period it is not unlikely that this building had such a facade - as mentioned like a smiliar building near by. So they only had to change the upper floors to imitate the facade of a venitian palace.
For my research I'd be very interested in any additional information and especially images or floorplans of this building and the exhibition. I'd be very thankful for any hint or suggestion where to find such information.
Greetings from Germany, Volker