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What happened next?

R

RobertS

master brummie
I have been looking to explore my grandfathers WW1 record and have made a deal of progress.

James Percy Johnstone was already in the territorials with his brother at the outbreak of war. He enlisted to serve in the Warwicks on 01/09/1914. He served as Private 2576 in the 81st Provisionals. He was in the trenches at the Somme and taking cover from incoming artilery.He kept telling his mate to keep down. A shell struck, he was winded, and turning to his friend found his head had been blown off. James Percy broke down and shook involenarily for days. We know from other testemony that after one shell strike he was unconscious for 4 days. His mother recalls him being brought home on a streacher. It seems probable that he was in the Royal Warwicks assault in the first days of the Somme and then redeployed with few remnants of the 81st that had survived.

During the war he was discharged on the 16/05/1916 'in consequence of para 392 XX1 in accordance with War Office letter 9. At the expiration of the period of engagement.(see discharge papers) after one year 258 days service of which one year 96 days had been in France. He returned home in fairly poor condition but on the 29/05/1916 he re-enlisted in the 3rd B.R.T.A to join his previous commrades. (Kings Regulations Para 392(xxi) is "The termination of his period of engagement, who whether at home or abroad will be sent home for discharge" and generally refers to men who are serving with the Territorial Force who have completed their 4 year term, plus an extra year of embodiment in times of war. Discharge papers detail him as 'honest, sober and trust worthy, with only one or two entries on his sheet of a minor military character'. The only other thing we know was that he was on the 'Somme' manning the big guns (don't know how big) for a long time, and suffered subsequent permanent hearing loss. (Clearly a move from the infrantry.)

What I can't find out is where he went after the first offensive on the Somme and where he returned to after re enlistment. There seems to be so many movements of surviving soldiers to other units. We have his pension and medal records (and the medals) but they don't help.

Is there any way of tracking his service?
 
Robert what a wonderful insight into you grandfathers war record you are so lucky to have so much personal information even if it is a little traumatic to read. I hope someone can help you further.
 
First World War soldier

If you post his Royal Warwickshire Regiment service number there is a good chance I will be able to give you the battalion.
 
First World War soldier again

I should have added that he did not serve abroad in 81st Provisional Bn which was home service only Territorials formed in 1915. He would have transferred into another RWR Bn, probably one of the four front-line Territorial Bns - 1/5th. 1/6th. 1/7th. 1/8th.
 
Percy John Johnstone

His service number of 2576 suggests a pre-war Territorial. But why enlist on September 1 1914 if already a Territorial? This may be because on August 28th the Warwickshire Territorials in camp at Chelmsford were asked to volunteer for foreign service so the decision would be like a 're-enlistment'. He would have to been in either the 1/5th, 1/6th. 1/7th or 1/8th Battalion.

By May 1916 he had been in France for 96 days suggesting he went over as a replacement having finally agreed to foreign service.

The 81st Provisional Bn was not formed until June 1916 and was made up of Home Service personnel only. So who was he attached to from September 1914 to March 1915 when the foreign service volunteers from the four battalions went to France. And who was he attached to by presumably remaining in England from March 1915 to cFebruary 1916.

All 4 Territorial bns attacked on the Somme but to rejoin after completing his service he was now in 3rd B.R.T.A. What does this stand for? Are you sure this shouldn't be 3rd Brigade RFA or RGA (Royal Field Artillery or Royal Garrison Artillery). Does not fit with rejoining his 'previous comrades'.

Those who were killed with proximate service numbers between 2570 and 2580 (some numbers were attached to two different men in different battalions) - 12 include 5 in the 1st Bn (regulars - unlikely), one 2nd Bn, four from 1st/5th (likely) and one each from 1st/6th and 1st/8th Bns.

There are more questions than answers here. I suggest you download the medal card and copy it to the forum so we can all study it.
 
Reply Alan Tucker

Thanks Alan. Reading carefully and preparing to post details I have. Attached are his discharge papers.

He and his brother attended the Drill Hall Warwicks was in Aston Manor from sometime in 1911 (presumably when he joined the territorials). This would accord with his first discharge. He said he could have stayed in England but voluteered to serve at the front and was sent to a camp 'down south'. Another incident we have been unable to resolve is his 'sending home'. He was delvered home in an ambulance unable to see, stand or talk. We don't know if this was an interlude or when he was first discharged.

I know he said he 're enlisted to re join his mates' but I dont know how precise this statement was. It may have been a simple statement for unknowing civilians at home. Some of his drinking mates and co-workers from the gas company were already dead. His older brother Jack was still out there. He had an affinity to horses and worked with them near the front. (Possibly the worst thing to do.) By the time of his discharge he was probably eligable for conscription? (and may have had little choice about rejoining the Army).
 
His Medal Index Card indicates that he went to France with the 48th Division T.F. serving with one of the Royal Warwickshire Territorial Battalions. 23/3/1915 is the date the Division embarked for France.

His second discharge in August 1916 was from the 3/3 South Midland Brigade Royal Field Artillery, which would have been a Reserve unit at Home for the 48th Div Artillery.

Terry
 
Thanks Terry

Thanks for the information Terry. When you say

'His second discharge in August 1916 was from the 3/3 South Midland Brigade Royal Field Artillery, which would have been a Reserve unit at Home for the 48th Div Artillery.'

This may give a clue to when he migrated from the infrantry to artillery, ie before August 16 but not how he ended up in the 3/3 South Midland.

Any idea how someone on active service would end up in England in a reserve unit? Would he be given a different unit either prior to discharge or being injured? (On serving his alloted time in the Territorials he arrived back in Birmingham in fairly poor shape. From the family description sounds like shell shock, involutary movements, periods of complete inertia, speech difficulties etc.)

I've loads more information but I'm not sure if I'm getting closer to understanding what happened to him.


Many thanks
 
Robert, it seems to be a similar situation to my grandfather. With information I was able to supply to Terry, he confirmed my grandfather was wounded whilst serving with the 1/8 RWR, returned home and after recovering was transferred to the 1/7 RWR on home service and trained marksmen. I assume he was not fit enough to be sent back to the front, but was still able to assist with training troops in this country.see my website for the full story https://www.bhamb14.co.uk/index_files/Page336.htm

Colin
 
Thanks Colin

Thanks Colin,

Useful clue. Hope all is well, having an occasional look at the B14 website, still looking for material, will forward if I find any.

Now back to the mysteries of the great war.



Regards
 
Robert

Reading through the documents that you uploaded makes it clear that J P Johnstone was not a pre-war Territorial.

He enlisted on 1 September 1914 and because he lived in Sparkbrook it was most probably either the 1/5 or 1/6 Royal Warwicks whose Drill Hall was Thorp Street.
He then went to France with the rest of his battalion & 48 Division on 21 March 1915.

Then further information can be found on the document "Results of Medical Board 15/8/17"

His Foreign Service lasted three monthes from 22 March 1915 to 26 June 1915.

There is a short explanation May 1915 Rouen (base hospital, France) "Not result of and not ...... by military service." (cannot make word out)

Thus from 26 June 1915 until being discharged 16 May 1916 he was in the UK undergoing medical treatment.

Then according to the other documents after he was discharged from Warwicks he enlisted into the 3/3 South Midland Royal Field Artillery as a Driver but he discharged from them also as being unfit.

His name and number do not appear in the casualty lists from March/May/June 1915. So we may never know what caused him to be sent home.

Also on his documents his trade is listed as a Gas Worker.

He is listed on the 'City of Birmingham Gas Department Roll of Honour' Council House Depot, of men who served their country.
Regards

Terry

p.s. I will check the battalion War Diaries to see if there is any mention etc
 
Thanks and more thanks Terry

I'm amazed by what you can deduce from the documents, find and know.

James Percy was a meter reader and inspector for the Gas Company. (He emptied peoples meters and checked if they had leaks etc.) He continued to work for them doing the same job until he retired. (J P worked in the Brush Factory near Clifton Road after leaving school and got the job a couple of years before the War.

The name on the Roll of Honour is a real find.

During the period up to the start of War he lived in digs Cregroe Street in Ladywood. (Would Thorp Street still have been the drill Hall?)

My mothers (b1918) Aunts Daisy and Emma (b1895 and 96) were adament that both JP and his brother John Thomas (Little Jack) were in the TA's before the war and this seems to be born out by the attached. (Got this back from loan to a cousin today after sundry threats and promises. James Percy kept this by him until he died.) What do you make of this and the papers already posted? This is why I thought he was discharged after TA service period + 'one year times' of war and one of the causes of my confusion.

'in consequence of para 392 XX1 in accordance with War Office letter 9. (At the expiration of the period of engagement (Discharge papers) after one year 258 days service of which one year 96 days had been in France.)

Your offer to look in the battalion war diaries would be most welcome if you have time.

Once again many thanks
 
Robert

The 81st Provincial Bn was the battalion he transferred into whilst undergoing medical treatment. It was a home service unit made up of men undergoing treatment or too old to serve abroad.

This is only conjecture......

You say that the family story was that he arrived back in Birmingham in very poor shape possibly shell-shock.

The 1/6th Royal Warwicks were holding front line trenches in the Plugstreet Wood trenches (Ploegsteert) and around 12/13 June 1915 the Germans had dug and exploded an underground mine a few yards from the Warwicks front line trenches. Luckily the Germans missed the trench. However a couple of Warwicks were wounded. Possibly P J Johnstone was one of these. The traumatic effect of such a large 'Bang' especially if he was in a dug-out would no doubt cause some type of injury, not physically but maybe mentally i.e. shell-shock.

Regards

Terry
 
Reply to Terry

I'm laying out all the information I now have to see if I can construct the probable story so far.

Wouldn't have got this far without help!

Can you recommend some sources I can go to so I can look at the background and the detail of the battle you refer to? The GCSE ones are too simple and the more complete histories too complex and seem to miss bits(and assume a great deal of background knowledge).

Suspect I am asking for the impossible!


Thanks again
 
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