Webb Thomas , attorney (died 1824)

[MWS]

Only found one for a Yorke Webb. Baptised 21 Nov 1787 Hinckley, buried 1788.

 

[LisaT]

Only found one for a Yorke Webb. Baptised 21 Nov 1787 Hinckley, buried 1788.

Oh! That must have been their first child. I think there are two other infant sons memorialized with their mother in Birmingham. Thanks.

 

[LisaT]

Hi Lisa I've just come across all yours and others interesting posts about Thomas Webb and his daughter Jane. I have just joined the forum. I too have been trying to trace Janes mother with little success. Sara was correct in that the family were very strong non conformists' am related to Thomas Webbs father also called Thomas Webb who is my ggggg grandfather -So Thomas Webb the attorney is my gggguncle. Thomas had the following siblings Elizabeth Webb b1762 -1833 ( my direct grand mother ) ,John Webb b1755-1756,Henry Yorke Webb 1804 - 1879 ,Frances Webb 1760-1829 married Thomas Warren ,Mary Webb b1765 who married George Swinson .
There are various family letters confirming these and the dates. Are you also related?
Jane Louden Webb was incredibly ahead of her time and clearly very resourceful - !I haven't been able to find the marriage certificate of her father which is frustrating.
regards Brigette

Hi Brigette -- are you sure about those dates for Henry Yorke Webb? It seems impossible that he could have the same mother as siblings born in 1750, 1755 and 1760. Also, I think I have found a bankruptcy notice for someone named Henry Yorke Webb in 1790. I would love to know more. I have sent you a message -- or "started a conversation" -- if you'd like to reply there.

 

[Laurence]

I saw this stream only yesterday and I have long been interested in the anomalies and conundrums that are Jane Webb, made even more difficult to resolve because she destroyed many papers and records before her death. I have given a few details below (some of which have been mentioned previously) to some of the many posers she left behind her.

• There are other indicators but her death register entry reads “Jane Loudon, 3 Porchester Terrace, Paddington, 17 July 1858, age 57”. That would mean she was born circa 1802, not the frequented cited 1807.
• Jane’s father’s obituary gives him to be Thomas Webb of Kitwell House, near Halesowen who died 16 September 1824 aged 74 and who “For upwards of forty years he had practised as an eminent attorney in Birmingham”. Jane’s Lines, addressed to my Father on his Birth Day give the date as 20 November. The parish register of St John the Baptist in Bromsgrove has a christening of Thomas, son of Thomas Webb on 20 November 1752 while the non-conformist registers for Bromsgrove Chapel Lane where there is the entry for 2 December 1752: Thomas of Thos & Hannah WEBB was baptised. [See details for Mary below.]
• Maybe Jane’s father was the Thomas Webb who was articled to James Brasier in Bewdley in 1772. The articles include “Thomas Webb of Bromsgrove aforesaid, Maltster” who was father to Thomas Webb being articled. Further, this could explain Thomas’ links to London, as Brasier was an Attorney of the Court of Common Pleas at Westminster and on Thomas Webb becoming an Attorney in 1777, it states he is of London (presumably with links to London society). This could explain how it was that Jane was able to move to London after the death of her father and live with socialites John and Susan Martin in Marylebone until her marriage to JC Loudon in 1830 (where John Martin and his daughter were witnesses). Back to Brum and Thomas Webb appears in a 1791 trade directory in Colmore Row / Church Street then John Bird was articled to Thomas Webb of Birmingham in 1794. The business became Thomas Webb & Thomas Tyndall circa 1810, Webb, Tyndall & Rawlins in 1821 and it was Tyndall & Rawlins in an 1825 trade directory. This would tie in with Thomas & Jane Webb going to Europe and Thomas found that financially he was in dire straits on his return, the suggestion being he had been swindled by his partners and Jane was left more or less penniless when her father died.
• As for Jane’s aunt, her father’s sister, the parish register for St John the Baptist, Bromsgrove has the following birth: 20 January 1765, born Mary daughter of Thomas and Hannah Webb while the non-conformist registers for Bromsgrove Chapel Lane on 20 February 1765 have: Mary of Thos & Hannah WEBB was baptised. This is supported by the 1841 census which shows Mary Swinson (she married George Swinson in Northfield in 1788) aged 75 and at her death in 1850 she was 86 so she was born circa 1766.

The foregoing considers only a few aspects of Jane’s life which she did her best to obscure and only slowly is the truth unravelling.

 

[LisaT]

I saw this stream only yesterday and I have long been interested in the anomalies and conundrums that are Jane Webb, made even more difficult to resolve because she destroyed many papers and records before her death. I have given a few details below (some of which have been mentioned previously) to some of the many posers she left behind her.

• There are other indicators but her death register entry reads “Jane Loudon, 3 Porchester Terrace, Paddington, 17 July 1858, age 57”. That would mean she was born circa 1802, not the frequented cited 1807.
• Jane’s father’s obituary gives him to be Thomas Webb of Kitwell House, near Halesowen who died 16 September 1824 aged 74 and who “For upwards of forty years he had practised as an eminent attorney in Birmingham”. Jane’s Lines, addressed to my Father on his Birth Day give the date as 20 November. The parish register of St John the Baptist in Bromsgrove has a christening of Thomas, son of Thomas Webb on 20 November 1752 while the non-conformist registers for Bromsgrove Chapel Lane where there is the entry for 2 December 1752: Thomas of Thos & Hannah WEBB was baptised. [See details for Mary below.]
• Maybe Jane’s father was the Thomas Webb who was articled to James Brasier in Bewdley in 1772. The articles include “Thomas Webb of Bromsgrove aforesaid, Maltster” who was father to Thomas Webb being articled. Further, this could explain Thomas’ links to London, as Brasier was an Attorney of the Court of Common Pleas at Westminster and on Thomas Webb becoming an Attorney in 1777, it states he is of London (presumably with links to London society). This could explain how it was that Jane was able to move to London after the death of her father and live with socialites John and Susan Martin in Marylebone until her marriage to JC Loudon in 1830 (where John Martin and his daughter were witnesses). Back to Brum and Thomas Webb appears in a 1791 trade directory in Colmore Row / Church Street then John Bird was articled to Thomas Webb of Birmingham in 1794. The business became Thomas Webb & Thomas Tyndall circa 1810, Webb, Tyndall & Rawlins in 1821 and it was Tyndall & Rawlins in an 1825 trade directory. This would tie in with Thomas & Jane Webb going to Europe and Thomas found that financially he was in dire straits on his return, the suggestion being he had been swindled by his partners and Jane was left more or less penniless when her father died.
• As for Jane’s aunt, her father’s sister, the parish register for St John the Baptist, Bromsgrove has the following birth: 20 January 1765, born Mary daughter of Thomas and Hannah Webb while the non-conformist registers for Bromsgrove Chapel Lane on 20 February 1765 have: Mary of Thos & Hannah WEBB was baptised. This is supported by the 1841 census which shows Mary Swinson (she married George Swinson in Northfield in 1788) aged 75 and at her death in 1850 she was 86 so she was born circa 1766.

The foregoing considers only a few aspects of Jane’s life which she did her best to obscure and only slowly is the truth unravelling.

Excellent work! Yes, it seems most likely that Jane's father Thomas Webb was the same one who was articled to James Brasier in Bewdley; I haven't seen the more detailed articles to which you refer with the name and profession of his father, only a list that gave the name of his sponsor as J.B. Spilsbury (probably his uncle).

Jane Wells Webb's birthday was 19 August, so that would mean she had not yet turned 58 when she died in July, which ought to make her birthdate 1801. She certainly was not born as late as 1807, but a confusion between the numerals 1 and 7 is easily made (I suspect Bea Howe may have taken the handwritten age 57 for 51) ...but the reason for thinking she was born in 1800 is that was the date of birth she supplied when she applied for a grant from the Royal Literary Fund in 1829 (I have not seen this letter myself). So....did she get it wrong, or was it incorrect on her death certificate?

I did not know about James Brasier's connection to London, but I suspect that Thomas Webb's connection to that place began when he served as a clerk to Brasier, and lasted no more than two years afterwards. (Maybe too difficult to establish a practice in London, he lacked the right connections, or he tired of working as a very junior partner in another firm.) By 1780 he was in Coventry, in partnership with Edward Inge (who was the son of a London lawyer, so perhaps Webb worked for the elder Inge first?) . But Inge and Webb separated after a major murder trial in 1781 - they seem to have had a disagreement over how the defense should have been handled. In 1784, Bailey's British Directory has a listing for Webb, Thomas, attorney at law, in Hinckley, Leicestershire. And in 1786, Thomas Webb, attorney and bachelor of Hinckley, married Jane Heydon [who signed the register as Jane Davis alias Heydon] by license in Coventry.

I have never seen any suggestion that Thomas Webb was swindled by his partners; the only direct suggestion for how he lost his money I have seen (from an anonymous newspaper account following the death of Jane Loudon) was that he made some unwise speculations in property and had been forced to mortgage his own house. One possibility for their trip abroad --depending on when this happened -- may have been to live more cheaply, while he took a sabbatical -- because, rather than retiring, when they returned, he resumed his work as a lawyer and only fully retired in 1822 -- for ill health, according to his daughter, and that may have been so, but he was 72 years old, so it was hardly an early retirement. When he died in 1824 it was said to have been after "only a few hours" of illness.

 

[Laurence]

I always tend to shy away from mentioning the case brought for the murder of Allesley Broughton when talking about Webb as no-one came out of it very well; especially not Donnellan and Webb, Inge and the defence were not at their best.
Even so, it is relevant to mention it as part of Thomas' professional life.

 

[LisaT]

I always tend to shy away from mentioning the case brought for the murder of Allesley Broughton when talking about Webb as no-one came out of it very well; especially not Donnellan and Webb, Inge and the defence were not at their best.
Even so, it is relevant to mention it as part of Thomas' professional life.

I don't know if he ever handled a murder case again. Maybe that discouraged him? Subsequently, at least in Birmingham, he seemed to specialize in bankruptcies.

 

[AndySawyer]

I saw this stream only yesterday and I have long been interested in the anomalies and conundrums that are Jane Webb, made even more difficult to resolve because she destroyed many papers and records before her death. I have given a few details below (some of which have been mentioned previously) to some of the many posers she left behind her.

• There are other indicators but her death register entry reads “Jane Loudon, 3 Porchester Terrace, Paddington, 17 July 1858, age 57”. That would mean she was born circa 1802, not the frequented cited 1807.
• Jane’s father’s obituary gives him to be Thomas Webb of Kitwell House, near Halesowen who died 16 September 1824 aged 74 and who “For upwards of forty years he had practised as an eminent attorney in Birmingham”. Jane’s Lines, addressed to my Father on his Birth Day give the date as 20 November. The parish register of St John the Baptist in Bromsgrove has a christening of Thomas, son of Thomas Webb on 20 November 1752 while the non-conformist registers for Bromsgrove Chapel Lane where there is the entry for 2 December 1752: Thomas of Thos & Hannah WEBB was baptised. [See details for Mary below.]
• Maybe Jane’s father was the Thomas Webb who was articled to James Brasier in Bewdley in 1772. The articles include “Thomas Webb of Bromsgrove aforesaid, Maltster” who was father to Thomas Webb being articled. Further, this could explain Thomas’ links to London, as Brasier was an Attorney of the Court of Common Pleas at Westminster and on Thomas Webb becoming an Attorney in 1777, it states he is of London (presumably with links to London society). This could explain how it was that Jane was able to move to London after the death of her father and live with socialites John and Susan Martin in Marylebone until her marriage to JC Loudon in 1830 (where John Martin and his daughter were witnesses). Back to Brum and Thomas Webb appears in a 1791 trade directory in Colmore Row / Church Street then John Bird was articled to Thomas Webb of Birmingham in 1794. The business became Thomas Webb & Thomas Tyndall circa 1810, Webb, Tyndall & Rawlins in 1821 and it was Tyndall & Rawlins in an 1825 trade directory. This would tie in with Thomas & Jane Webb going to Europe and Thomas found that financially he was in dire straits on his return, the suggestion being he had been swindled by his partners and Jane was left more or less penniless when her father died.
• As for Jane’s aunt, her father’s sister, the parish register for St John the Baptist, Bromsgrove has the following birth: 20 January 1765, born Mary daughter of Thomas and Hannah Webb while the non-conformist registers for Bromsgrove Chapel Lane on 20 February 1765 have: Mary of Thos & Hannah WEBB was baptised. This is supported by the 1841 census which shows Mary Swinson (she married George Swinson in Northfield in 1788) aged 75 and at her death in 1850 she was 86 so she was born circa 1766.

The foregoing considers only a few aspects of Jane’s life which she did her best to obscure and only slowly is the truth unravelling.

Yes, as Lisa says, good stuff! What I have read about Thomas Webb's financial situation is rather that either he made unwise speculation in land or was ruined through "the return to cash payments" after the Napoleonic Wars. (This was the return (in 1821) of the ability of the Bank of England to convert banknotes into gold, which was restricted by the 1797 Bank Restriction Act during the Napoleonic War, after a run on gold threatened the country's gold reserves and could have led to bankruptcy. Presumably speculators would be caught by this having to come up with gold, but without knowing the details of TW's dealings it's hard to know how he was affected. The obit of JWL in the Limerick Reporter -- and I think other newspapers -- of 30 July 1858 suggests both. I don't know the source of that, and as it comes in an obit of JWL and not her father, might have come from a family "legend". Jane did rather embroider bits of her life, such as her meeting with John Claudius -- have you come across others? And have you come across anything to suggest what she might have been doing for a living after her father's death and her first known published work since 1824?

 

[Brian D]

There is an archive containing letters from John Claudius, Jane and Agnes Loudon in the Robinson Library at Newcastle University. (This is part of the Trevelyan Archives.) I spent some time recently examining these letters.
WCT 175: 40 is a small printed card, sent to the Trevelyans by Agnes (almost certainly included with her letter WCT 175: 41, dated July 15th 1858).
The card states: "In Memoriam. At 3, Porchester Terrace, Bayswater, Jane Webb Loudon. Born, 19th August, 1800,- died, 13th July, 1858. Widow of John Claudius Loudon."
This would appear to be a definitive birth date for her.

 

[Laurence]

Excellent. With this evidence surely no-one can argue a later birth than 1800 for Jane. All that's needed now is to find out where she was born!

 

[HoleLane]

I saw this stream only yesterday and I have long been interested in the anomalies and conundrums that are Jane Webb, made even more difficult to resolve because she destroyed many papers and records before her death. I have given a few details below (some of which have been mentioned previously) to some of the many posers she left behind her.

• There are other indicators but her death register entry reads “Jane Loudon, 3 Porchester Terrace, Paddington, 17 July 1858, age 57”. That would mean she was born circa 1802, not the frequented cited 1807.
• Jane’s father’s obituary gives him to be Thomas Webb of Kitwell House, near Halesowen who died 16 September 1824 aged 74 and who “For upwards of forty years he had practised as an eminent attorney in Birmingham”. Jane’s Lines, addressed to my Father on his Birth Day give the date as 20 November. The parish register of St John the Baptist in Bromsgrove has a christening of Thomas, son of Thomas Webb on 20 November 1752 while the non-conformist registers for Bromsgrove Chapel Lane where there is the entry for 2 December 1752: Thomas of Thos & Hannah WEBB was baptised. [See details for Mary below.]
• Maybe Jane’s father was the Thomas Webb who was articled to James Brasier in Bewdley in 1772. The articles include “Thomas Webb of Bromsgrove aforesaid, Maltster” who was father to Thomas Webb being articled. Further, this could explain Thomas’ links to London, as Brasier was an Attorney of the Court of Common Pleas at Westminster and on Thomas Webb becoming an Attorney in 1777, it states he is of London (presumably with links to London society). This could explain how it was that Jane was able to move to London after the death of her father and live with socialites John and Susan Martin in Marylebone until her marriage to JC Loudon in 1830 (where John Martin and his daughter were witnesses). Back to Brum and Thomas Webb appears in a 1791 trade directory in Colmore Row / Church Street then John Bird was articled to Thomas Webb of Birmingham in 1794. The business became Thomas Webb & Thomas Tyndall circa 1810, Webb, Tyndall & Rawlins in 1821 and it was Tyndall & Rawlins in an 1825 trade directory. This would tie in with Thomas & Jane Webb going to Europe and Thomas found that financially he was in dire straits on his return, the suggestion being he had been swindled by his partners and Jane was left more or less penniless when her father died.
• As for Jane’s aunt, her father’s sister, the parish register for St John the Baptist, Bromsgrove has the following birth: 20 January 1765, born Mary daughter of Thomas and Hannah Webb while the non-conformist registers for Bromsgrove Chapel Lane on 20 February 1765 have: Mary of Thos & Hannah WEBB was baptised. This is supported by the 1841 census which shows Mary Swinson (she married George Swinson in Northfield in 1788) aged 75 and at her death in 1850 she was 86 so she was born circa 1766.

The foregoing considers only a few aspects of Jane’s life which she did her best to obscure and only slowly is the truth unravelling.

Hello,
I'm interested in Jane Webb because she married into 'The Book Manufactory of Bayswater' as Sarah Dewis calls the Loudons. So you can imagine how thrilled I have been to find this thread and to be able to add yours, Laurence and the others, to Lisa Tuttle's and Andy Sawyer's introductions to and commentaries on their recent editions of The Mummy!
I'm afraid I haven't got anything to offer in return about Thomas Webb except that his will mentions his nieces and nephews Thomas Warren, Elizabeth Jones, and George and Somebodyelse Swinson. The handwriting makes the 'somebody' look like 'Jeremy' but I suppose it must be Harriet?
What I can add about his daughter Jane is that she is mentioned in Mary L. Pendred's 1923 biography of John Martin (p115 and 117) which made use of the reminiscences in old age of Leopold Martin, a son of John and Susan who was a child when Jane Webb was attending their 'Petit Soupers'. It does not sound as if he remembers her actually living with them, but it does say that Susan Martin loved Jane like a daughter. It also does not give the impression that they were 'socialites', but rather that they held frequent gatherings at their home because Susan Martin was housebound by arthritis, so that was how she could meet people and keep in touch with the world outside the family.
A big thank you to all the contributors to this thread - and I have to confess to a special feeling about all this as I was born in Northfield (at my grandparents' house) and have some memories of this part of Birmingham from childhood visits.