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TURNER Thomas , glass cutter, and family 1841 - Charlotte & sons Frederick & Samuel

T

Turnip

Brummie babby
I am struggling to get back beyond this family who are in the 1841 Census at Great Hampton Street.
Son Samuel was born at Woodcock Street, Aston, Duddeston & Nechells in 1939 (have Certificate) and son Frederick was born in 1837 at Fox Street and baptised at Parish of Saint Martin (have copy of Parish record).
Frederick is my great-grandfather, a coppersmith, who married in Birmingham and took his family out to New Zealand in 1870.
Samuel may be the Samuel, aged 11, in the 1851 Census in Birmingham Infant Poor Asylum and if so probably doesn't have desendants to be found.
I cannot find Thomas, & Charlotte in the 1851 Census or subsequent Censuses.
In the 1851 Census Frederick is living with his uncle Jarvis, aged 24 a coppersmith, & his wife Eliza and a child Eliza (who may not be Jarvis's daughter) at 40 Buck Street.
I have not been able - with any certainty - to place Jarvis & Thomas in the same family so as to identify parents and siblings. It is noted that FamilySearch's IGI has Jarvis with a family which does not include Thomas.
There is also a marriage record for Thomas & Charlotte in FamilySearch's IGI which I have not been able to verify. No Birmingham Parish records appear to include such a marriage!
It would also be nice to find Frederick & his wife Maria Eliza (aka Mary or Eliza) and daughter Elizabeth in the 1861 Census!
Any clues or thoughts on possible research possibilities would be very welcome.
 
Re: Thomas TURNER, glass cutter, and family 1841 - Charlotte & sons Frederick & Samue

On Ancestry there is a marriage of a Thomas Turner and a Charlotte Taylor listed on 19 November 1835 at the church of St George in Birmingham.

I wonder if Thomas and Charlotte had died by 1851 hence Samuel being classed as a pauper and Frederick living with his uncle. There is a death of a Thomas in 1845 listed for St Phillips but it is hard to know if it is your one or not. There is also a death of a Charlotte in 1842 with an address of Gt Hampton Street.

Janice
 
Re: TURNER Thomas , glass cutter, and family 1841 - Charlotte & sons Frederick & Samu

I have now found a marriage of a Samuel Turner son of Thomas glass cutter. It is in 1869 to a Mary Ann Nightingale at St Bartholomews. Samuel is listed as a shoe maker.
Could be coincidence.

Janice
 
Re: TURNER Thomas , glass cutter, and family 1841 - Charlotte & sons Frederick & Samu

I don't know if this is any assistance (or merely confuses the matter more), but White's 1849 directory and the 1850 Post office directory both list a Thomas Turner, coppersmith at 18 Buck St. the 1847 Slaters directoryand 1845 Post Office directory lists Turner & Bromige, coppersmiths, at 18 Buck St. the 1852 Slaters directory lists Jarvis Turner, coppersmith at Marrions court, Buck St and Thomas Turner, brazier at 25 Buck St. the date is date of publication and the information would be at least 1 year out of date and, this early, possibly more.
 
Re: Thomas TURNER, glass cutter, and family 1841 - Charlotte & sons Frederick & Samue

Hey pymburns, what a great response from folk on this website.
I have found Thomas & Charlotte's marriage and the lesson learned is to search all the applicable options of data files extracted, instead of relying on what appears to be the major applicable file.
I cannot explain how a University researcher with access to the Church records in Birmingham missed this record years ago!
Your reasoning of a possiblity for the 1851 Census records of Samuel & Frederick is quite feasible and I am prepared to accept the death record of Charlotte at this stage. I did have a note that that record did exist.
I have noted the death record for Thomas, but not accepted it into my files at this point in time.

Response very much appreciated.

Brian
 
Re: TURNER Thomas , glass cutter, and family 1841 - Charlotte & sons Frederick & Samu

Yes Janice, this could be a coincidence, but it looks to be a real possibility.
I have found the record on FreeBMD but could you please point me to where you got Samuel's occupation and father's name and occupation and Church detail please.
Your interest is much appreciated.
Brian
 
Re: Thomas TURNER, glass cutter, and family 1841 - Charlotte & sons Frederick & Samue

This is all good information mikejee, and probably fits in with my family, although I will have to wait and see whether I can link the Thomas TURNER, coppersmith and the 1845 & 1847 records into the family at some later point. At this stage I have Thomas as the glazier (glass cutter) but his son's death record has his father as a coppersmith!
The response from this website has been great.
Thanks
 
Re: TURNER Thomas , glass cutter, and family 1841 - Charlotte & sons Frederick & Samu

Sam Turner marriage.jpgCharlotte burial.jpg
Hi Brian
I found the church record on Ancestry by doing a search in the Birmingham Marriages and Banns - this gave me access to a copy of the church record. I am not sure if I am meant to but I have screen printed it and am, hopefully, going to attach it for you. I will also try to do the same with Charlotte's burial which I found in a similar way.

Janice
 
Re: TURNER Thomas , glass cutter, and family 1841 - Charlotte & sons Frederick & Samu

Thanks very much. Did you notice that a witness to Samuel's marriage was Frederick TURNER. His brother must have seen him married before going out to New Zealand. It is fairly conclusive that we have the right Samuel TURNER now!
I had a copy of Charlotte's burial record.
I really like this forum!!!
However I must go off to bed - it's 11.30pm here.
Brian
 
Re: TURNER Thomas , glass cutter, and family 1841 - Charlotte & sons Frederick & Samu

Here I am back again.
I managed to pick up Samuel in the 1861 Census in a Birmingham Workhouse with the occupation of shoemaker, which is what my grandafther (Samuel's nephew) was in New Zealand. In the 1871 Census Samuel and his wife Mary Ann were living together (alone) and my 'brick wall' returned with the 1881 Census where I cannot identify either Samuel or Mary Ann and there are too many death records to even start to make guesses! There was never any mention within the family of Samuel having emigrated to New Zealand (or Australia for that matter) and as my grandfather lived with my family for much of his later life I do not believe that is a possible solution. Emigration to USA or Canada becomes a possibility if they had not died or were alive but not in the 1881 Census. However not having heard any mention of my grandfather's uncle during my early years I would tend to support the early deaths as a likely senario.
 
Re: TURNER Thomas , glass cutter, and family 1841 - Charlotte & sons Frederick & Samu

My guess (no proof) is that Samuel died in 1880. There is a death of a Samuel in 1880 in Aston. I am not sure about Mary as it is quite a common name. I will have anpther look later.

Janice
 
Re: TURNER Thomas , glass cutter, and family 1841 - Charlotte & sons Frederick & Samu

Thanks Janice, I had noted that there was a death for a Samuel in 1880 but not recorded it as 'fact' at that stage and as you say there are many Mary's!
Thanks for your interest, but probably there is little to go on at this stage.
Brian
 
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