TomKis’s Cottage Grosvenor St West

[AussieNightingale]

Hello,

I hope everyone is well.

I’m from Australia and currently doing family history research with my mum. I’ve just found this group and very grateful I was allowed to join.

We’re having trouble finding connections/photos/history of some of our family from Birmingham due to so many buildings being lost from the bombings and demolition.

We are related to the Nightingale family who emigrated from Birmingham to Melbourne, Australia in 1860. Mary Ann Nightingale is listed on her birth certificate as being born in “TomKis’s Cottage, Grosvenor Street West, Birmingham”. We can’t work out where this might be? Whether it’s the name of a house or hospital/maternity home? Maybe spelling is wrong? Very grateful to anyone with ideas or info.

Also, any distant relatives on here?

Mary Ann Nightingale 23/9/1840 - 20/9/1893

Her parents:
Charles Nightingale 1809-1877 (born in Birmingham)
Mary Ann Nightingale nee Smith (1814 - 1843) (Born in Great Lake, Nottinghamshire)

I appreciate any help you can provide.
Thank you so much,
Ange

 

[MWS]

Not easy that early. First thought would be an abbreviation, for something like Thomas King's cottage.

This map below is from 1839, though probably a little earlier, and at that time the roads that became Grosvenor St West - Grosvenor St and Mill St - are just on the edge of Bham and only starting to be developed.

With nothing labelled it's impossible to say which if any building it may be. The next map available is from 1889, by which time the area is completely changed.

 

[Astoness]

Hello,

I hope everyone is well.

I’m from Australia and currently doing family history research with my mum. I’ve just found this group and very grateful I was allowed to join.

We’re having trouble finding connections/photos/history of some of our family from Birmingham due to so many buildings being lost from the bombings and demolition.

We are related to the Nightingale family who emigrated from Birmingham to Melbourne, Australia in 1860. Mary Ann Nightingale is listed on her birth certificate as being born in “TomKis’s Cottage, Grosvenor Street West, Birmingham”. We can’t work out where this might be? Whether it’s the name of a house or hospital/maternity home? Maybe spelling is wrong? Very grateful to anyone with ideas or info.

Also, any distant relatives on here?

Mary Ann Nightingale 23/9/1840 - 20/9/1893

Her parents:
Charles Nightingale 1809-1877 (born in Birmingham)
Mary Ann Nightingale nee Smith (1814 - 1843) (Born in Great Lake, Nottinghamshire)

I appreciate any help you can provide.
Thank you so much,
Ange

think ive got her parents and siblings on the 1861 census living at cheapside deritend birmingham ...did mary ann go to australia alone ?

also in case you do not have it below is charles and mary anns marriage banns at st martins which is still in use today

 

[MWS]

I think that's the wrong family Lyn. Those children are registered with mmn Amos and they are living at Bordesley St in 1841.

Op suggests that Mary died in 1843. Their children appear to be baptised in Fillongley, where Mary was buried.

I can't see them on any census and if Mary's (Smith) birthplace was learnt from 1861 it can't be correct. There is nothing to suggest that Charles or Mary were born in Bham, though that's not saying they weren't but I wonder about the Fillongley connection.

 

[Astoness]

ahh right mark..so who is the mary ann (written as marrian) on that 61 born gt lake nottingham...i was going on the info from post 1...have i got confused

lyn

 

[pjmburns]

Just thinking out loud. Are we sure the birth cert says "Tomkis" ? Perhaps a scan of the words might help.
Asking because I notice a Timmins factory on the map. It just made me wonder about spellings.
Could be totally wrong idea but.....

 

[MWS]

ahh right mark..so who is the mary ann (written as marrian) on that 61 born gt lake nottingham...i was going on the info from post 1...have i got confused

lyn

She was a Mary Ann Amos who married a different Charles Nightingale in 1829. She is listed as being born in Great Lake in 1851 as well as 1861, which makes me think that the OPs info that her Mary (Mary Smith, I don't think Mary Ann) was born there is probably incorrect.

 

[Astoness]

She was a Mary Ann Amos who married a different Charles Nightingale in 1829. She is listed as being born in Great Lake in 1851 as well as 1861, which makes me think that the OPs info that her Mary (Mary Smith, I don't think Mary Ann) was born there is probably incorrect.

ok mark i shall stop now then until we hear more

lyn

 

[pjmburns]

I think that's the wrong family Lyn. Those children are registered with mmn Amos and they are living at Bordesley St in 1841.

Op suggests that Mary died in 1843. Their children appear to be baptised in Fillongley, where Mary was buried.

I can't see them on any census and if Mary's (Smith) birthplace was learnt from 1861 it can't be correct. There is nothing to suggest that Charles or Mary were born in Bham, though that's not saying they weren't but I wonder about the Fillongley connection.

Several of those children were born in Birmingham according to the baptism records. Charles, the Father is a plasterer.
We need to know if Mary (mother) went with them to Australia in 1860 - if she did then that rules this lot out.

 

[MWS]

I think this is the burial in Melbourne of Mary Ann's sister Juliana. Clicking on other Nightingale's at the same cemetery and you can see Mary Ann (Childs) herself and another sister, Selina (Clifton). So if they all went together, they must have gone before 1855.

Julia Hannah Nightingale Budd (1833-1855) - Find...

Born in 1833. Died on 23 Jun 1855. Buried in Carlton North, Victoria, Australia.

www.findagrave.com

 

[pjmburns]

Found baptisms for Juliana and Selina (born in Birmingham). There was also an Elizabeth. Plus a William born and died 1843. His burial is on same double page as his Mother who died a couple of months later.

 

[MWS]

Juliana had a son in 1853 so that brings their departure forward by at least 2 more years.

There is also a burial for an Elizabeth (Halford) at the cemetery that could match but I'd be less certain it.

 

[pjmburns]

Couldn't find the family in UK on 1841 or 1851 censuses.

 

[MWS]

They should be somewhere in 1841 but missed off I suppose.

They could have left before 1851, Juliana married in 1852. And the burial for Elizabeth does seem to be correct. There are marriages for all 4 daughters in Victoria, St Peter's Eastern Hill, mother listed as Mary Smith for the 3 that have parents listed.

 

[pjmburns]

I am not sure all areas of Birmingham are on for 1841. Districts 5 to 7 in Aston are missing for instance. Or they aren't on Ancestry.
We need to know Father's occupation on that birth cert.

 

[pjmburns]

I am not sure about this but there seems to be another daughter Alice born and baptised in Birmingham
An Elizabeth and Alice Nightingale travelled to Australia in 1853
Is this them? Haven't found any of the others yet but some records only begin at 1853 and if Charles went out earlier he mght be harder to spot.

 

[MWS]

I think you are right, even though she appears to be registered with mmn name Randall.

In 1851 there is an Alice Nightingale in Fillongley with grandparents Thomas and Hannah Watson.

There is a marriage in Bham for a Hannah Smith to a Thomas Watson in 1832. Date is 1 Jan, the same date as Charles Nightingale's to Mary Smith.

Not sure if Hannah was a widow or single and Mary illegitimate.

And there is a burial for an Alice (Mall) in the same cemetery as the other sisters.

 

[MWS]

Solved the Randall anomaly as well. Mary was the illegitimate daughter of Hannah Randall, baptised 6 Mar 1814 in Fillongley. Hannah subsequently married a William Smith in Bham 16 Jul 1816.

No way to tell if William Smith was her father or not but it also explains the Fillongley connection.

 

[pjmburns]

I think you are right, even though she appears to be registered with mmn name Randall.

In 1851 there is an Alice Nightingale in Fillongley with grandparents Thomas and Hannah Watson.

There is a marriage in Bham for a Hannah Smith to a Thomas Watson in 1832. Date is 1 Jan, the same date as Charles Nightingale's to Mary Smith.

Not sure if Hannah was a widow or single and Mary illegitimate.

And there is a burial for an Alice (Mall) in the same cemetery as the other sisters.

You beat me to it.
I had just found the birth mmn Randall and the 1851 census. I am convinced this is the correct family. Nothing to do with the Mary born in Great Lake Nottingham Too many coincidences otherwise.

 

[pjmburns]

There is a marriage in Bham for a Hannah Smith to a Thomas Watson in 1832. Date is 1 Jan, the same date as Charles Nightingale's to Mary Smith.

Not sure if Hannah was a widow or single and Mary illegitimate.

And there is a burial for an Alice (Mall) in the same cemetery as the other sisters.

Hannah is listed as a widow.


I think this is Mary baptised at St Philip's with parents John and Hannah

 

[MWS]

Hannah married a William Smith (post #18). Mary was baptised in Fillongley as Randal in 1814.

She also had a sister Hannah, baptised 1811, who married a James Hands, when she was listed as Hannah Randle Smith.

 

[pjmburns]

Hannah married a William Smith (post #18). Mary was baptised in Fillongley as Randal in 1814.

She also had a sister Hannah, baptised 1811, who married a James Hands, when she was listed as Hannah Randle Smith.

OK so we have the marriage of Hannah to Thomas Watson which links us to Alice Nightingale.
Apologies must have missed #18 as was looking for the Smith/Watson marriage.

 

[MWS]

No probs, easily done.

Been trying to find a birth for Charles Nightingale. There are a number in the area but nothing stands out except maybe a Charles baptised in Tamwoth 1809, son of a Charles and Alice.

 

[Astoness]

there is a bapt in baginton 1809 for charles nightingale parents thomas and sarah..i take it he was not born in birmingham ?

lyn

 

[MWS]

Looking again at the marriages for Mary & Hannah I now see that the first witness on both is a Joseph Randle.

 

[MWS]

there is a bapt in baginton 1809 for charles nightingale parents thomas and sarah..i take it he was not born in birmingham ?

lyn

Nothing certain but he appears to be listed on the censuses up until 1871 (wife Ellen).

 

[MWS]

I thought maybe Charles could have re-married in Australia and maybe that it would list his parents but I can't see anything.

He does seem to be buried in the same cemetery as his daughters, in the same plot (or the next one) as Alice and her husband, in 1877.

 

[pjmburns]

Yes - found the burial. Listed as Charles M but that doesn't help as haven't seen it used on anything else. I had a quick look but didn't see a remarriage. Leaving it until tomorrow now. Hope the op gets back to us.

 

[MWS]

A small(ish) recap...

The original question hasn't really been solved and unfortunately I think we'd have to be very lucky to do so.

However, there appears to be more than enough evidence to say that Mary Smith was not born in Great Lakes, Notts and that she was actually Mary Randal, the illegitimate daughter of Hannah Randal born about 1814 in Fillongley, Warks, before Hannah married a William Smith.

The origins of Charles Nightingale are more doubtful but it seems unlikely that he was born in Bham, possibly in Tamworth in 1809 but with no evidence no way to be certain.

After having 6 children (5 Bham, 1 Fillongley) and the death of Mary and the youngest child, Charles and probably 3 of his daughters (Juliana, Selina & Mary Ann) emigrated to Australia in the late 1840s or early 1850s. They were subsequently followed by Elizabeth and Alice in 1853.

All 5 daughters married and died in the Melbourne area of Victoria, and were buried in the same cemetery.

 

[pjmburns]

Great summary- only thing to add is Mary married Charles as Mary Smith and children registered with mmn Smith apart from Alice. (That is, those children born after compulsory reg began).
A good job done so hope op sees it. Whatever I, for one, enjoyed the sleuthing.