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Thomas Andrews and Mary Ann Penk Marriage

J

JoeMel99

proper brummie kid
Would some one be so kind as to look up the marriage of Thomas Andrews and Mary Ann Penk.

They were married on Apr 12/1869.

I am looking for the witnessess and parents of the two people in questions.

Thank you,
Joe
 
hi joe, these are the details from the marr. certificate

st. martins church, birmingham 12 apr 1869

Thomas Andrews. full age. bachelor. forger. Moor Street . father - John Andrews. forger
Mary Ann Penk . minor . spinster. Moor Street. father - John Penk . blacksmith

the witnesses were Henry and Mary Ann Andrews
 
there is also this baptism at st. martins

7th Jan 1874 Mary Ann daughter of Thomas and Mary Ann Andrews . abode - workhouse. fathers occ. blacksmith

strangely on 27th Feb 1874 these two baptisms
Mary Ann daughter of Thomas and Mary Ann Andrews . workhouse . blacksmith
and Thomas son of Thomas and Mary Ann Andrews. workhouse. blacksmith
 
I read somewhere that it did sometimes happen that more than one child in a family was baptised at the same time, especially if they were put in an orphanage, or the family worked for a Christian employer and the children had not already been baptised. Then there were the families who did it because it worked out cheaper, not forgetting twins of course.
 
hi pom, yes ive often seen a few children baptised at the same time, but it seems their first child (mary ann) was baptised twice. once on her own in jan 1874 then with her brother in feb 1874!
 
Hi Shera I hadn't notice the different dates ... Do we have Mary Ann's actual birth date? Could the first have been one of those quick often 'Home' baptisms as the child may not have been expected to live, she may have been the weakest of 'Twins' . In such cases the children were often given a full church baptism later if they survived, that would account for the children if twins being baptised together at the later date.
 
sadly there is no actual birth date on the record, and they were all living in the workhouse at the time. perhaps it was simply a mistake? ive no idea.
 
Shera and Pomgolian,
You are both fantastic. Not only have you helped in finding the information I was looking for, but you have identified some key elements I can use in my future searches.
I am assuming that both the Andrews family and the Penk family were living on Moor street in St. Martin’s Parish, Birmingham at the time of the marriage.
I have Mary (first daughter) as born in 1870 and Nancy (second daughter) born in 1876. The double 1874 baptism may explain the gap between 1870 and 1876. Mary may have been baptized with Thomas. Currently I do not show Thomas as living after 1874 (Re: 1881 Census). Three other brothers come into the picture later: Harry (b. 1877/Birmingham), George (b. 1880/Birmingham) and John (b. 1882/Birmingham).
John happens to be my great grandfather and I do have a copy of his birth certificate.
Again I would love to thank both of you for your assistance.
Now it is time to track down Mary's father, John Penk and his immediate family and Thomas's father and family, let the search continue . :)
So many people to find and friends to make.
Thank you,
Joe
 
Thomas Andrews death 1878 Birmingham age 4.

1861 Court 9 house 3 Fordrough street,Birmingham.
John Andrews age 53 b. Smethwick Rivet Forger
Mary age 49 b. Dudley
Emma age 18 b. Birmingham
Thomas age 15 Iron bedstead maker b. Birmingham
Alfred age 12 b. Birmingham
 
Last edited:
Alberta,

Thank you for the information.

I was wondering if you are from Canada as well or did you choose your name for other reason.

If it is not to late may I wish you a yours a very Happy New Year.

Joe
 
Thanks for your good wishes.

My christian name is Alberta,it was my grandmothers name she was born in 1887 and was named after one of Queen Victorias grandchildren.
 
Alberta,

Now here is a coincidence.

I live in the provice of Alberta, Canada.

It to was named after the same said relative of Queen Victoria.

Joe
 
...And that ladies gives reason to believe that the daughter of Queen Victoria was named after her Father Prince Albert....
The Princess Louise (born Louise Caroline Alberta, also known as Marchioness of Lorne and Duchess of Argyll by marriage; 18 March 1848 – 3 December 1939) was a member of the, the sixth child and fourth daughter of Queen Victoria and her husband, Prince Albert of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha.
View attachment 62767...
Click to expand...

Not meaning to go off topic.....:offtopic:
 
This looks like it could be Mary Ann's family 1861:

Place: Willenhall -Staffordshire
Civil Parish: Wednesfield
Ecclesiastical Parish: Holy Trinity
Address: Cross Street

Surname First name(s) Rel Status Sex Age Occupation Where Born
PENK John Head M M 45 Blacksmith Denbighshire - -
PENK Martha Wife M F 41 Shropshire - Marton
PENK Joseph Son U M 18 Labourer Staffordshire - Wolverhampton
PENK John Son U M 15 Labourer Staffordshire - Wolverhampton
PENK Mary A. Dau U F 13 Scholar Staffordshire - Wolverhampton
PENK Alice Dau U F 9 Scholar Staffordshire - Wolverhampton
PENK William G. Son U M 4 Scholar Staffordshire - Wolverhampton

There are a number of Penk famiies in Denbighshire - Holt on the 1861 census
 
Pomgolian,

You are definitely tenacious and again I must thank you.

I have found the web site for the GRO and will be requesting Mary Ann's birth and marriage documents.
There is documentation, unconfirmed that Thomas is listed as "Of Age" and Mary Ann is listed as a "Minor" (aged 15 at the time of their marriage).

Before I started my search, I was unaware how giving people could be and you definitely exemplify the caring I have found in the various sites.

Thank you,
Joe
 
Pomgolian/Shera/Alberta

I would again like to thank you all for the assistance you gave me.

Shera, I used your information to order the marriage cert. for Thomas Andrews and Mary Ann Penk and you were spot on.

What I am having a little concern about is the age of Mary being that of a minor.

If I do the math, the 1861 census potentially has her listed at 13 years of age and that would make her approximately 21 at the time of her marriage (in 1869).

What is the difference between "full age" and a "minor"?
 
Full age at that time was 21 years.
when reading and writing wasn't as good as today people often got their ages incorrect by a couple of years.
It would appear that Mary had a problem with her age for many years LOL.
1871 original entry first says 20 (1851) changed to 26(1845)
1881 has 27 (1854)
1891 has 39 (1852)
 
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Alberta,

Thank you.

Going on the premiss that she was actually 20 (or there abouts :) ), I may have found one of her siblings.

Alice Penk (b. abt. 1855)
Father: John Penk (Blacksmith)
Married: May 24/1875
Spouse: Joseph Devey
Church: St. George (Wolverhampton and surrounding district)

Alice is a reoccurring name in the Andrews family.
John is consistant being a blacksmith.
Alice is married in a previous area the the Penks lived in.
Alice is within the age range to be a sibling.

On with the search to confirm. lol
 
Alice was born in December 1851.

1861 has age about right (9) 1881 says she is 36? 1891 is about right also 39.
 
Alberta,

Seems her age seems to have fluctuated a bit.

She aged 27 years in 20 years and then only three in the next 10.

Would that be considered an age spurt rather than a growth spurt. LOL
 
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