Sycamore Place, Ryland Street

[Malc Toy]

Hi All
Has anyone got any old Birmingham maps for the period circa 1881?
I'm trying to find the exact location where my Great Grand Parents lived at the time of the 1881 census which listed 10 Sycamore Place, Ryland Street, Bordsley, Deritend Municipal Ward. I suspect it has been demolished if it was one of the old back-to-back one up one down terraces. Ryland Street still exists but now mainly industrial sites or gardens.

Many thanks in advance and many apologies if I have posted this in the wrong area!

Malcolm

 

[Radiorails]

You could look at this thread. No maps but there are some great old photos to be seen there.

Ryland Street

Here are some lost photos of Ryland Street i am Re-posting. These are two photo's of Joes Cafe in Ryland St. The colour one was taken in 1961. Notice it looks like the same car on the right, but facing the other way. Also the big advert over the door is different. So...

birminghamhistory.co.uk

 

[Malc Toy]

Thanks Alan, brilliant photographs.
As the school was in the process of being demolished and the next door church already gone, I'm guessing the housing was also demolished in the 60's where many Birmingham back-to-back and terrace house where lost.

 

[mikejee]

Have looked at this and cannot work it out. Looking at the census returns around this area, it appears that Sycamore Place lies between 40 & 42 Ryland St and contains 24 houses. . Now street was renumbered later so this is not the same as numbering today, but the 1882 directory shows Essington st being between (what was then) 33 & 34 Ryland St , yet can see no court containing that number of houses in the area.

 

[Malc Toy]

Mike, thank you for your input especially with the map.
It does seem odd that Sycamore Place is not named or house numbers shown. Do you know if the ‘Courts’ also were sometimes named by an alternative title - ie could say Court 2 be known by another name?
The only other explanation I can think of is the white areas shown on the map be other housing areas. For example the white area to the left of Electro Works or perhaps the white area virtually opposite to the north.
Certainly a conundrum!

 

[sospiri]

Malc,

It seemed fairly commonplace to give back houses a "posh"name. For instance "back of 15 Bartons Bank" in Aston also had the official name of Bartons Place, but none of the residents seem to have known it by that name. Similarly with back houses in Icknield Street, Brookfields.

You also used to frequently come across a name set in stone amongst the brick houses in streets in Ladywood.

Maurice

 

[mikejee]

Yes it was really common for a court to have a number and a name. Sometimes one would be used and at other times the other. To make it even more complicated, though this cannot apply in this case (because of the number of houses in the Place), a continuous row of houses in a street would be called XXX terrace, or XXX place.

 

[BrummieGeoff]

Malc Toy & mikejee ....
I believe that the Ryland Street that is mentioned in the 1881 Census sheet in #1 was later renamed Stanhope Street in Highgate i.e. it's not the Ryland Street that still exists in Ladywood.
Attached is an 1889 map showing "Sycamore Avenue" that was previously called "Sycamore Place" .... off Stanhope Street. My great grandparents are shown in the 1881 Census living opposite Malc Toy's great grandparents !

 

[mikejee]

Yes. I think you are correct. I did assume it was referring to the other Ryland St missed out that the census shown was in the Deritend ward.

 

[Malc Toy]

Great work Geoff….
One would presume the re-naming was to avoid confusion. Interesting that our Great-Grandparents lived opposite each other and would probably have been pals.
By chance, with you being a ‘’Sparkhill Lad’ did you go to a school in that area?

 

[BrummieGeoff]

Malc Toy ....
Not in the Highgate area : I went to Greet Primary and Moseley Grammar.
Here's a 1950s map showing house numbers in "The Sycamores" (street names appear to be very fluid in this area) : assuming the numbering hadn't changed, you can pick out your great grandparents' house.
Also an undated photo showing Stanhope Street and "Sycamore Place" (behind the church tower).