Sword Cutlers

[Mark Cloke]

Hi

My name is Mark Cloke and I am researching the various Sword Cutlers that operated in Birmingham during the 18th and 19th Century. I would be very interested to hear from anyone that is related to the various families involved in this significant trade for the region. Although I am interested in speaking to anyone with information on the trade, I am particularly interested in hearing from anyone with information relating to the following families that were heavily involved....

Gill
Harvey
Deakin
Woolley

I will also be happy to provide information to anyone who is interested in this aspect of Birmingham life.

Feel free to email me on mark.cloke@oldswords.com

I look forward to hearing from anyone.

 

[Mark Cloke]

Give us some clues Mark it helps to get us started. Dates Areas Streets etc

Also it not good to show your e-mail address on the Forum....

Hi,

Thanks for your message. Here is some background on my note.

I am a collector of antique swords who is very interested in the history of the manufacturers based in Birmingham. I work in the centre of Birmingham and have for the past 18 months been researching the lives of various families involved in the trade. I have already completed extensive research into the Gill family who operated in an around Masshouse Lane in the late 18th early 19th century.

The families of Gill, Harvey and Woolley were very important to sword manufacturing in England and helped re-establish the trade in England after the almost complete dominance of German manufacturers. A very heated debate was carried out in the public eye in the 1780's between London dealers who assembled swords using German blades and families like Gill who made complete swords here in Birmingham.

Although I know a little of the trading history of the families what I am really interested in is the history behind the families themselves.

• The Gill family traded in and around Masshouse Lane
• The Harvey family traded in one form or another for circa 150yrs from various addresses. They ended up in Coleshill St. and closed circa 1897.
• Woolley formed parnerships with various other people and traded from circa 1785-1834 in and around Edmund St.
• The Deakin family traded from various addresses. circa 1800-1870

( I actually run a website helping with research and identification of antique swords and my email is often referred to in various places on the web. Because of this I have strong anti-spam systems in place. So I am not to concerned with having my email address posed here. Thank you for your concern though! )

 

[loisand]

Welcome Mark and good luck with your quest....if you put mills of birmingham into the search engine at the top of the page you may possibly find other names that may be of interest to you, concerning the sword trade.... Mark it's in the research section, scroll down the first page and it's about half way down

 

[gingerjon]

Ralph Martindales (Crocodile works) started by a surgeon from the Birmingham General Hospital Chavasse (1865) was quite a large swordmaker manufacturer I have the history of the works, it mentions German sword making.

 

[Mark Cloke]

Hi,

Thanks for the reply. So was the company called "Ralph Martindales"? I have never heard of this company in relation to swords so I would be very interested in learning more. What is meant by "German sword making", do you think they were making swords for the German market?

Thanks

 

[BernardR]

Mark - See this

You may already have this reference - HAY MILL stood on the east of the Cole above the Coventry Road. William Lewis was the tenant from 1756 to 1776, Joseph Smith from 1777 to 1790, and a Mr. Gill in 1810. (fn. 24) In 1820 it was said to be in use as a blade mill but suitable for conversion to corn milling or paper making. (fn. 25) Between 1836 and 1840 it was held by William Deakin, (fn. 26) who may have been a gun-barrel or bayonet maker. (fn. 27) Shortly after, Smith and Horsfall and James Horsfall, musicalwire maker, became the tenants, (fn. 28) and the firm of Webster and Horsfall, wire and cable makers, were the tenants until the end of the century. The first Atlantic cable was made there. (fn. 29) The premises have remained a wire mill in the hands of Latch & Batchelor, Ltd., since 1900. (fn. 30)
From: 'Economic and Social History: Mills', A History of the County of Warwick: Volume 7: The City of Birmingham (1964), pp. 253-269. URL: https://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=22970. Date accessed: 17 March 2008.

 

[gingerjon]

Horace Chavasse recieved permission to construct a large factory, to be used as a sword manufactory (circa 1860 at Alma street) The German bit was that they maintained English swords were not as good as the German swords m ade in Solingen. Thomas Gill of Birmingham challenged the government in 1840. to compare the qualities of the manufactured blades Gill made over 2500 blades and only four never came up to standard.
this is just a synopsis of the story of Ralph Martindales Sword and Mower Blade manufacterer.
I can put you in touch to where you can purchase this information if you are interested
John Houghton

 

[loisand]

1828-29

Hope this helps:
Samuel Chambers...84 Aston St
William Deakin....71 Navigation St
Widow Gill...20 Masshouse lane
William Harvey...High St, Deritend
Joseph Lyndon & Co....Holloway Head
Samuel Mayo...73 Worcester St & Dale End
Henry Meridth...22 Whittal St
Mole & Thompson...75 Edmund St
Hannah Osborn....Bordesley Mill
Benjamin Reddell...24 Legge St & Aston Road
Issac Sargent...High St, Deritend
William Thompson...13 Coleshill St
Woolley, Sargant & Fairfax....Edmund St

Good luck

 

[Mark Cloke]

Horace Chavasse recieved permission to construct a large factory, to be used as a sword manufactory (circa 1860 at Alma street) The German bit was that they maintained English swords were not as good as the German swords m ade in Solingen. Thomas Gill of Birmingham challenged the government in 1840. to compare the qualities of the manufactured blades Gill made over 2500 blades and only four never came up to standard.
this is just a synopsis of the story of Ralph Martindales Sword and Mower Blade manufacterer.
I can put you in touch to where you can purchase this information if you are interested
John Houghton

Hi John,

Thanks for your reply!

Yes I would love to know more about Chavasse and Martindales. I have just gone through my records and found a naval cutlass made by Chavasse. I attach an image to this post.

For information the sword trials descibed actually happened in 1786. Gill submitted 2650 swords for testing of which 4 were rejected. (Thomas Gill died in 1801)

The saga of the sword tests that were carried out at the end of the 18th century is a very long story! But a very important one for the British sword trade. The article I have written on Gill covers this in some depth but it is currently awaiting publication so I am affriad I can't share at this moment. Happy to answer questions if anyone want to know more.

Thanks again.

Mark.

 

[Graham Hickman]

Hello, I'm brand new to this forum ( so be gentle!) and I would like to start my first post off with a question.

I have, in virtually mint condition, a Victorian police sword made in Birmingham by J.W Chudley & Co. I have so far not been able to trace these sword/gun smiths through either google or other sources and was wondering if any of you may know or have heard of these people. I had the sword looked at by a professional valuer who specialised in militaria who admitted that he didn't recognise the maker but thought that the sword dated from around 1840/50.

Here's a few photos for your perusal:

Thanks for looking.

 

[BernardR]

Hi Graham - You may find some info on the Sword Forum run by Mark Cloke. It has been made subscription so before you ask them wait and see what the guys here can find as they are pretty smoky.

Added 18:56 - I see you already have.

 

[mikejee]

Can't find the name in any directory i looked in. It would seem, however, that they were not a very specialist firm, as they also apprently made flat irons (https://collectie.hmr.rotterdam.nl/objecten/33721)
Mike

 

[BernardR]

I guess it was a case of diversifying Mike after once the market for swords started to decline.

 

[Graham Hickman]

Thanks for un-earthing that, Mike. I have tried loads of searches in google for J.W Chudley & Co. but nothing came up for me. If a firm is making all sorts of items (like a lot of sword/gun smiths) I would have thought they would show up more on searches?

 

[mikejee]

I would agree.it is peculiar. I looked under the name Chudley in directories for 1815, 1818 ,1823, 1829, 1833, 1839, 1841, 1845, 1849, 1855, 1862, 1872, 1880, 1890, 1900 and 1908, and couldn't find any Chudleys . I did wonder whether it was definitely a birmingham uk firm. There is Birmingham alabama, and in the 19th century the major industry was steel. Just a thought
mike

 

[Neville Philpott]

Presumably the police only used/wore swords for ceremony during the
Victorian era?

Neville..

 

[Tiny]

Re: 1828-29

Hope this helps:
Samuel Chambers...84 Aston St
William Deakin....71 Navigation St
Widow Gill...20 Masshouse lane
William Harvey...High St, Deritend
Joseph Lyndon & Co....Holloway Head
Samuel Mayo...73 Worcester St & Dale End
Henry Meridth...22 Whittal St
Mole & Thompson...75 Edmund St
Hannah Osborn....Bordesley Mill
Benjamin Reddell...24 Legge St & Aston Road
Issac Sargent...High St, Deritend
William Thompson...13 Coleshill St
Woolley, Sargant & Fairfax....Edmund St

Good luck

Just seen this, haven't found this info before but Issac Sargent high Street Deritend is my Gt Gt Grandfather... the Sargant in Woolley, Sargant & Fairfax is probably my relation too.. where did you find that information so i can check it out (Claire-brum71)

 

[Ray Barrett]

The police museum in Birmingham as some similar swords,they may know who made them.Just guessing,but wouldn't they have been made under contract to the police.

As a point of interest, I think sword making was one of Birmingham's oldest industries.They made swords for the parlimentarians during the English civil war,thats why Prince Rupert attacked Birmingham.

 

[Mark Cloke]

Birmingham Graham,The police museum in Birmingham as some similar swords,they may know who made them.Just guessing,but wouldn't they have been made under contract to the police.

As a point of interest, I think sword making was one of Birmingham's oldest industries.They made swords for the parlimentarians during the English civil war,thats why Prince Rupert attacked Birmingham.

I am sure that the swords woulod have been made to contract by each local division. The largest manufacturer by far for the police, prison service and customs was Parker Field & Sons of London. Almost everyone of these swords I have seen have been made by them.

You can see lots of examples of these swords on my website www.oldswords.com.

I am a researcher/collector of Antique swords and have done quite a bit of research into the trade and makers of Birmingham. If anyone has any questions then feel free to ask.

 

[Mark Cloke]

Re: 1828-29

My cousin (Edna Gill) married a Sargent but I do not know any background.

Gill & Sargent....both names strongly associated with the Birmingham sword trade. I wrote an in depth paper on the 'Gill' family for the Journal of the Royal Armouries.

 

[usernick]

Re: 1828-29

Hi,

I know this is an old thread (found it via Google).

Anyway, J.W. Chudley & Co were only around for a relatively short period of time (from about 1871 to 1879'ish), as John Wonnacott Chudley (sadly) took his own life in 1876.

The shop was located at 3 St Mary's Row in Moseley and *might* also have taken up numbers 4 and 5 as well? I also believe that they were a general ironmongers who made a wide variety of tools (not just swords).

Anyway, a quick message...

Cheers,


Nick

 

[Pedrocut]

On yesterday's Antique Roadshow there was a sword presented to Captain William Wright (born 1764) of the Chesterfield Yeomanry. It was made by E. Gill of Birmingham (Elizabeth).
I presume that this may be the Widow Gill mentioned in above posts of 1818 ?