sillitoe family

[Lyates]

Hi all,

Thank you for letting me join
My parents are Lawrence (Larry) Yates and Ann Yates nee Sillitoe they met and married in the Harborne/Smethwick region in the 1970s the are from Joseph (Joe) Yates nee Iafrati/yafrati from the Italian quarters Joe had multiple siblings, my great Aunt Marina moved to Alaska we have reconnected. Joe married Hilda Yates nee Smith who ran a hair dressers in Harborne. My brother and I have run DNA tests and both got different results from who Joes parents were so would love to clear that up. Ok my mum's side we have Samuel James Sillitoe (Jim) and Ethel Sue Sillitoe nee Smith (sue). Sue was taken in by family as her mum died during child birth, we have been unable to travel her family. Jim's dad was James Sillitoe who married Polly Prince they had another child Edie. James died when Jim was about 8 and Polly took to her bed and never did anything until the day she died. We know they were cousins and it was a huge scandal but I'd love to understand that more.

 

[MWS]

A little confusing.

Samuel James Sillitoe married Mary Ann (Polly) Prince 1920?

They had 2 children - Edith Mary b1922 and Samuel James b1927.

Samuel James (Jim) senior died in 1946, when young Samuel James (Jim) was 18 not 8.

Samuel James snr's father, James, was the brother Mary Ann Prince's mother, also a Mary Ann. She died young when Mary Ann (Polly) Prince was just 6.

 

[Lyates]

Ooo thank you, that helps, I tried doing ancestry but the family Bible was complex and confusing and I did struggle with dates etc so was relying on my parents memory, they are getting older and my grandparents did survive into my adulthood so I never asked them. Mum told me Edie had bowel cancer as a child and grandad (Jim jr) looked after her from about the age of 8, which only made sense to me if Jim sent had already passed. It's why I'm struggling with this puzzle so much. Between lack of accurate memories and repetition of names I've gotten very lost. The dates of what you posted seems accurate.
The photo in colour is approx 1993 with Jim jr and Ethel sue and the one in black and white is Larry front, Hilda Yates nee smith right middle , Hazel (which may have been a sister or niece) left middle and an unknown lady at the back approx 1950s and Joe Yates nee Iafrati/yafrati.

I don't suppose you can find anything on Ethel Sues birth family?

 

[Astoness]

i have moved this thread from forum rules to our surname interests section of the forum

lyn

 

[Lyates]

Thank you, sorry I didn't realise it was in the wrong place

 

[MWS]

Ok, a little more confusion though I might have read things wrong.

Your parents, Lawrence and Ann appear to have married in the Bournemouth area not Harborne. Ann's parents both appear to have died there as well.

Ethel death in 2009 is listed as Ethel Jane, not Ethel Sue, aged 81.

On her marriage to Samuel James (1950) she is listed as Ethel Clifford. I can't see a birth reg. for an Ethel Clifford at,

 

[Lyates]

They loved in Birmingham but yes I believe they married near Bournemouth because it was near where nan and grandad moved to. Both nan and grandad died in Bournemouth. Clifford may have been here name before grandad, these details are really scant, I don't know about the middle name Jane. I was told Ethel sue and she went by sue but potentially records may vary from memory and verbal history, which would also explain why I'm having so much difficulty tracking down records. My nan died when I was 24 after 10+ years of Alzheimer's my grandad passed when I was about 11 so to young to ask about the history. Mum doesn't like talking about it as she said it was scandalous and noone was allowed to ask, these are the scant details I've been able to get and they may not be fully accurate. I know mum struggles when we come up to Harborne and last time we came up she pointed out old houses she lived in, which is when I got some details but I was driving and may not be remembering accurately.

 

[MWS]

Not asking questions when you had the chance is a regret most people have when doing their family tree.

Do you know your nan's date of birth?

A lot of records are now available, your grandparents marriage certificate for example, which may give you more details.

 

[Lyates]

I don't I'm afraid, I think their wedding anniversary was aug 25th and my brain is trying to say her birthday was in April, I believe there wasn't a huge age gap between her and grandad so my educated guess (I hate the word assumption) would be around 1927. I'm sorry I don't have more, I have let it drop over the years but now my son is showing an interest. I believe she had older siblings and Ive been told her mum died in childbirth and her dad couldn't cope with all of them so she was taken in by either friends or family, I have an old photo of her as a young child with an older lady which I've been told was either a nanny or her grandmother

 

[Lyates]

I'm unsure of the accuracy of these but it's what I found on my heritage

 

[Lyates]

That's Ethel as a young child with an older lady potential Mary Boden/Bowen but no accurate knowldeg

 

[MWS]

The family trees could be mostly correct.

There is a birth for an Ethel Jane Bowen Jun qtr 1928 and a death for an Ethel Jane Bowen also Jun qtr 1928.

The details for the older Ethel Jane are incorrect though. She was Ethel Jane Boden, born 1892.

So a possibility but would need a little further research.

 

[Lyates]

You're absolutely incredible, you really should charge for the work you do. Would I be right in saying the inaccuracy between Boden and Bowen is similar to what I'm finding on my dad's side with Iafrati and yafrati? So potentially a true match with a typo?

 

[MWS]

No, there's no inaccuracy of Bowen and Boden they are separate. Ethel Jane Bowen's father was Thomas Bowen and her mother was Ethel Jane Boden.

The Iafrati/Yafrati error is a common type of error. Many people couldn't read or write so they would say there name and whoever was writing it down, wrote it as they thought it was. Which can lead to many variations. Foreign names are sometimes worse for this.

 

[Lyates]

Ah ok, thank you, that's really helpful. You're so good at this

 

[MWS]

And one last thing for tonight. It is possible that Thomas Bowen had a sister, Annie, who married an Arthur Clifford.

Which would be the Clifford connection.

 

[Lyates]

That explains it, I wonder if that's who took her in

 

[pjmburns]

1921 census for Arthur Clifford - has M-in-L Mary Bowen with them. Addess is

 

[pjmburns]

Tracing Annie back she does have a brother Thomas.

 

[pjmburns]

Thomas marries Ethel Jane Boden and Ethel dies in 1928

On 1921 census there are 3 older children

 

[Lyates]

Omg that's incredible, thank you

 

[pjmburns]

Ok, a little more confusion though I might have read things wrong.

Your parents, Lawrence and Ann appear to have married in the Bournemouth area not Harborne. Ann's parents both appear to have died there as well.

Ethel death in 2009 is listed as Ethel Jane, not Ethel Sue, aged 81.

On her marriage to Samuel James (1950) she is listed as Ethel Clifford. I can't see a birth reg. for an Ethel Clifford at,

The birth of Ann Sillitoe in 1957 is also reg with mmn Clifford.

 

[pjmburns]

Omg that's incredible, thank you

I think I have the right family but can't place Ethel with them at the moment.

 

[Lyates]

The birth of Ann Sillitoe in 1957 is also reg with mmn Clifford.

I may have gotten surnames confused or mum may have 57 is accurate for mum, Clifford might be the right name

 

[pjmburns]

 

[pjmburns]

I have Arthur and Annie on 1939 reg but there are 3 crossed out entries -

 

[pjmburns]

There are 2 possible births so the third blanked entry could be Ethel but I can't tell

 

[pjmburns]

Not asking questions when you had the chance is a regret most people have when doing their family tree.

Do you know your nan's date of birth?

A lot of records are now available, your grandparents marriage certificate for example, which may give you more details.

It may be interesting to get the marriage cert from GRO and see who Ethel gave as her Father.