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Scott's Family Of Webley Scott.

  • Thread starter Thread starter Wendy
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Wendy

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I have reason to believe several members of this family held their funerals at Harborne Parish Church. I am now wondering if they were buried there or in a local cemetery. The first was probably William Middleditch Scott who died in 1916. I would think because of their vast fortune it would be a very large memorial. Any suggestions?
 
He left a few bob when he died

Ancestry Probate Calender

William Middleditch Scott of 2, Augustas Road died 4th Feb 1916 left £33,283. 13s

Harborne Church is one of the few missing from the Warwickshire List of MI's

Colin
 
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They were a massive company one of the largest employers at one time. That's why I think there will be a large memorial somewhere.
 
agreed wend...buriels are not my best subject but if i find out anything will let you know..could be in st augustines church edgbaston

lyn
 
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lol col ive just found that same site...

wend here is a bit of info..no nearer to finding where william scott is buried but you may find it of interest...

William Charles Scott was born in 1806, he was the eldest son of William and Dorothy Martin Scott who farmed at Bradfield Combust near Bury St Edmunds in Suffolk. Charles Scott, his brother, was born in 1807.

William Scott worked on the farm with his parents until he was 21 years old, but then obtained an apprenticeship as a gun finisher, probably with Benjamin Parker in Bury St Edmunds. Most people at this time started their apprenticeships at 14 so it seems that either William decided to change his career or his father needed his help on the farm and sought reimbursement for William's upbringing and education! Charles's career probably followed the same course.

In 1834, when his apprenticeship finished, William married Mary Susan Middleditch (born Bury St Edmunds 1810) and moved to Birmingham where he established himself as an outworker (gun finisher) at 11 Lench Street. Charles joined him in the business, probably within four or five years, and the firm of William & Charles Scott was established as "Gun and Pistol Makers". They were only recorded in the street directories in 1840. There are reports that William Scott established his business or was working in 1820 at 79 Weaman Street, but these are obviously not correct as William would have been only 14 years old at the time; the William Scott of 79 Weaman Street was a different person.

In 1835 William and Mary had a son, William Middleditch Scott. In 1837 they had another son, James Charles Scott.

In 1842 the firm moved to 33 Lench Street, and they took additional premises in 21 Loveday Street.

In 1849 they moved to Court, 4 Shadwell Street.

In the 1851 census William Scott and his family were living in Walsall Road, Aston. William Middleditch Scott (aged 15) was working in the firm as a gun finisher, James Charles (aged 14) was employed as a gun engraver. There were two further sons, Frederick M Scott (b.1839) and Edward John Scott (b.1849). There was a daughter, Amelia, who had been born in 1842. At this time Charles Scott (now aged 43) was living with William and his family, he married Mary A (maiden name unknown) in about 1852.

In 1855 the firm moved into larger and more prestigious premises at 94-95 Bath Street.

While working as an engraver with the firm, James Charles Scott attended art school (the "The School of Design"?). There have been reports that he had little interest in making guns, but although his speciality was engraving his reported lack of interest in gunmaking is unlikely, not least because of the high regard in which he and William Middleditch Scott, known as "the brothers in Birmingham", were held later in the century.

In the 1861 census, William Scott was recorded employing 18 men and two boys. By this time, Frederick M Scott was employed as a gun stocker. In the same census, William Middleditch Scott was recorded living in Victoria Road, Aston Manor with Caroline A (maiden name unknown but born in Edgbaston, Birmingham). They never had any children. The 1861 census records Charles Scott as living in Bolton Street with Mary, they had two sons, Martin (b.1853) and John (b.1859).

In 1861 William Scott was appointed a guardian of the Birmingham Gun Barrel Proof House, a position he held until 1865.

There are reports that William Middleditch Scott became a partner in 1858, and that the firm was re-named W & C Scott & Son in that year. There are other more likely reports that this happened in 1862. Yet other reports say that William Middleditch Scott only became a partner in 1866 but these are almost certainly incorrect. Whatever the truth, the name W & C Scott & Son implies that when William Middleditch Scott was made a partner and was selected as the future head of the firm, Charles Scott still worked in the business but was never made a partner, perhaps because he was not the eldest son.

In about 1864, James Charles Scott married Ellen Margaret (maiden name unknown but born in Chelsea, London in 1837), they had a daughter Caroline M in 1865.

From 1864 to 1895 the firm occupied premises in Bagot Street. The precise address is not known, but they may have occupied all or part of The Tower in Bagot Street. The original purpose of the tower is unknown, it may have been a shot tower. It was a government small arms factory (National Rifle Factory no. 2) prior to being taken over by W W Greener in 1914 for the manufacture of Belgian type Mauser actioned rifles and bayonets.

There are reports that the firm built and moved to the Premier Works at 123 Lancaster Street in 1865, and opened a showroom in London at 7 Dorset Place, Pall Mall, in the same year. It appears that the firm opened in London at that date, but the Premier Works at 123 Lancaster Street were probably only built in 1873/4 and occupied in 1875. At some time the factory at 94-95 Bath Street expanded to include 96 and 97 Bath Street.

The 1860s were very prosperous times for the Birmingham gun trade, due mainly to the American Civil War but also to the success they had selling their sporting guns, particularly pigeon guns and other high quality guns in the USA, Europe and elsewhere. At this time the firm was producing about 2,000 guns per annum.

In 1864 and 1865 Westley Richards joined Moore & Harris in a partnership established to save the manufacturing business of Moore & Harris from closure. The venture failed and, because Moore & Harris had a fairly substantial business exporting to the USA, the business was bought at auction by W & C Scott & Son.

On 25 October 1865, William Middleditch Scott filed his first patent. This was for loaded indicators and the famous Scott Spindle (No. 2752 of 25 October 1865), the spindle was used by Purdey in conjunction with their double bolt and it became the standard opening mechanism for double barrelled guns. The cocking indicators mentioned in the patent were spring loaded pins above the strikers that protruded through the top of the action body when the gun was loaded. In a later variation the tops of the strikers themselves protruded through the action.

In 1866 William Middleditch Scott was appointed a guardian of the Birmingham Gun Barrel Proof House, he retained this position until 1894.

In 1869 William Scott retired and William Middleditch Scott took over the running of the business.

Reportedly, from 1870 the firm marked all it's guns with the firm's trade mark consisting of a tower with a flag, representing The Tower in Bagot Street. Some guns may have been so marked, but probably not all of them, the use of this trade mark continued until at least 1914.

On 16 February 1870 an adjustable sliding front lump was patented under No. 452 (No. 108942 of 1.11.70 in the USA), this was popular abroad as any wear and looseness could be easily corrected simply by tightening the lump with a screwdriver. The lump is most commonly if not only seen on hammerguns made prior to 1887.

In 1871 the Dorset Place showroom in Pall Mall, London closed and the firm moved to 10 Great Castle Street, Regent Circus (now Oxford Circus) where the firm was to remain until 1899.

In the 1871 census, William Scott was recorded living in Victoria Road, Aston Manor. Edward John Scott had become a jeweller, Frederick M Scott, then aged 32, was a gun finisher still living at home. Charles Scott was living in Vulcan Place, Sycamore Road, Handsworth, with Mary A, Martin (aged 18) a gunmaker's assistant, and John (aged 13). William Middleditch Scott and Caroline had moved to Sharman's Cross, Solihull. James Charles Scott was recorded as living in Albert Road, Aston Manor with his wife, Ellen Margaret, and their daughter Caroline M.

Between 1871 and 1875 both William Scott and Charles Scott retired, William Middleditch Scott took over the running of the business.

In 1872 an improvement to the spindle patent was made, but it was not popular and does not seem to have been patented.

By 1873, strikers projecting from the breech face had long been a problem because they could detonate loaded cartridges and could be broken by the extractors. Spring-loaded strikers had been used, but on 5 April 1873 patent No. 1268 covered two mechanisms to move them back into their holes. The first was shaped slots cut into the extractors to push the strikers back into the breech and out of the way, and the second was a bar or a cam linked to the top lever to push them back into the breech face. The patent also covered two fore-end fasteners one of which, a short "bulb" shaped one, was used on the better quality models of gun. Patent No. 3756 later that year covered a rib extension with a spring bolting system and another two fore-end fasteners.

In 1874 the firm became agents for Smith & Wesson. Early in that year they patented a further fore-end fastener (No. 712). On 12 June 1874 patent No. 2052 was registered to cover a barrel locking mechanism (two spring operated cylindrical bolts on the standing breech parallel with the barrels). This was Scott's "Quadruple Grip", it was used by Holland & Holland amongst others, but the extra grips were unnecessary and the design was not popular. Patent No. 3424 of 7 October 1874 covered a hammerless action cocking mechanism similar to the Gibbs & Pitt patent. In this mechanism cocking was achieved by movement of the top lever, variations for different actions were included.

In Birmingham at the time was a partnership named Abingdon Works who made actions, other parts and accessories, and gunmaking tools. It was a partnership of several of the largest gunmakers in Birmingham but it appears to have been trading unsuccessfully. A new company, Abingdon Works Co Ltd, was formed in 1875 and William Middleditch Scott bought a majority of the shares. In addition to the partnership's premises in Shadwell Street, the new company took over the former Scott premises at 94-97 Bath Street and W & C Scott & Son moved to 123 Lancaster Street. Abingdon Works Co Ltd closed in 1889.

On 18 January 1875 William Middleditch Scott patented an external twin bolting system for barrels (No. 186) which comprised cross-bolts on either side of the action. Patent No. 1902 of 25 May 1875 covered a bolt which was part of the top lever. It engaged with the top rib extension and became famous as the Triplex top lever grip (in use up to 1892 when it was replaced by Scott's Improved Bolt). Minor changes were made to the basic design over the next few years and it was widely used until gradually replaced by the rectangular crossbolt introduced in 1892, it was discontinued by Webley & Scott in 1914. On 15 September 1875 the famous Scott crystal cocking indicators (and a fore-end fastener) were patented (No. 3223 in the UK and No. 215022 of 6 May 1879 in the USA). They were simply small windows let into the lock plates which allowed the user to see whether the tumblers were in the cocked position or not. They were used up to 1892 on virtually all Scott guns and up to 1900 on about one third of the guns produced. They were discontinued in 1905. Also in 1875, William Middleditch Scott and John Rigby registered patent No. 312 for a choke boring system for cylinder guns.

On 15 February 1876 William Middleditch Scott and Martin Scott (appointed Works Manager in 1876) patented a long fore-end catch which was used until 1892 (patent No. 615). Under that patent they included three barrel bolting mechanisms for different actions, but these were never produced in any quantity.

On 23 February 1878 William Middleditch Scott and Thomas Baker (action maker) patented their famous coil spring hammerless lock (No. 761) in which the gun was cocked on opening by means of rods passing diagonally through the action and engaging with projections on the barrel lump (it was patented in the USA under No. 210436 of 3 December 1878). This patent remained in production until 1892 but the design was used by Holland & Holland, Cogswell & Harrison and others, in some cases up to 1916.

In 1879 the Joseph Vernon Needham and George Hinton patent No. 706 (no. 225994 of 1880 in the USA) which was bought by Scott covered an intercepting sear or safety block which prevented movement of the tumbler unless the trigger was pulled. In that year, provisional patent No. 3883 with John Tonks covered a lever cocking hammerless gun but it was never registered or produced.

In the 1881 census William Scott was recorded living at 158 Victoria Road, Aston Manor with Mary Ann. Their son Frederick M Scott was still living at home (aged 42) and was still employed as a gunmaker. His brother, Charles, was then living at 16 Booth Street, Handsworth, his son John, had become a coach axle manufacturer. William Middleditch Scott (then aged 45) and Caroline had moved to 14 Greenfield Crescent, Edgbaston. James Charles Scott was erroneously recorded as James Edward Scott, he was living in St Bernard's Road, Solihull, with Ellen Margaret, they had had three sons; William James Scott (b.1872) who worked for the firm in the 1890s but emigrated to the USA in 1897/98; Harry E Scott (b.1873) who emigrated to the USA probably about 1897 but possibly earlier, and Frederick (Frank) Charles Scott (b.1880) who worked for the firm and then established his own business at 80-81 Bath Street in 1904.

On 8 February 1882 William Middleditch Scott and Thomas Baker patented their famous gas check groove. This was a groove around the striker holes which vented laterally to the outside of the action (No. 617 in the UK, No. 264722 of 19 September 1882 in the USA). In these early days, black powder gases could by-pass the cartridge cap and enter the breech around the striker where they would cause corrosion. The design was used up to 1935 by which time cartridges had long been "gastight". An alternative solution patented in the USA in 1883 was a cartridge which had grooves running from the cap to the rim of the cartridge, these supposedly allowed any gases from the cap to escape but it seems the cartridge was not very efficient or popular. On 18 March 1882 patent No. 1320 was an improvement to their 1878 patent which made their hammerless action a self-opening one through the use of coil springs around the cocking rods.

In 1883 William Scott, founder of the business, died.

Also in 1883, William Middleditch Scott patented another self-opening action (No. 727) for back-action locks (made between 1882 and 1887) and bar-action locks (made between 1887 and 1897) which was based on Thomas Perkes patent No. 1968 of 1878 which had been assigned to Scotts. On 8 August 1883 together with Charles Proctor, William Middleditch Scott patented a barrel cocking design which used cocking rods (No. 3859) but few were produced. This patent was registered in the USA on 20 November 1883 under No. 288670.

On 27 March 1884 patent No. 5564 covered another barrel cocking mechanism which cocked one lock as it opened and the other as it closed. It also included two slightly different mechanisms on the same principal and a mechanism to cock both barrels on closing.

In 1887 William Middleditch Scott retired (aged 51) and James Charles Scott took over the running of the business. By this time the company employed about 200 craftsmen. They sold guns under their own name in the USA, but in the UK they continued making sporting guns for the trade. They were suppliers of all types of guns to other Birmingham and provincial "gunmakers", and many of the top London firms sold Scott guns under their own names.

In about 1890 the firm opened an showroom in Turin, Italy. Reportedly, this showroom was established mainly to capitalise on the live pigeon shooting market, it was run by Frederick M (Middleditch?) Scott (William's third son sometimes incorrectly reported as Frederick William Scott). At about this time the firm was appointed gunmaker to the Kings of Spain, Norway and Sweden.

In the 1891 census, William Middleditch Scott was recorded living at 2 Augustus Road, Edgbaston. James Charles Scott was recorded at a more precise address than in the 1881 census, Rowanleigh, St Bernard's Road, Solihull. William J, now aged 19 was a gunmaker's apprentice, and Frederick (Frank) C (aged 11) was at school.

From 1895 to 1911 J C Scott was a guardian of the Birmingham Gun Barrel Proof House, he was also chairman of the Proof Committee for a time.

In 1897 W & C Scott & Son took over the firm of Richard Ellis & Son and then, on 21 October, amalgamated with P Webley & Son to form Webley & Scott Revolver & Arms Co Ltd, at enlarged premises at 81-91 Weaman Street (P Webley & Sons formerly occupied 82-89 Weaman Street). The precise reason for the amalgamation is unknown, it was probably due to a recognition of the change in the nature and scale of gunmaking firms, Webley needed additional manufacturing capacity for revolvers and similar related manufacturing activities, J C Scott wanted to retire and there was no suitable successor, and the Scott family wanted to capitalise on the value of the firm. James Charles Scott retired and his nephew, Martin Scott (Charles' son) left the firm to open his own business, Martin Scott & Sons Ltd at 13 St Mary's Row, this company was not recorded after 1908. The names of the sons are unknown. What happened to Frederick (Frank) Charles Scott (then aged 17) is not clear, he probably remained with the firm until 1903. He was recorded as a gunmaker at 80 Bath Street in 1904, his business continued until 1919.

In 1916 William Middleditch Scott died, James Charles Scott died in 1917
 
hi wend..ive been doing a bit of digging..not literally of course lol...the scotts are not buried at

lodge hill..
st johns church..harborne
st peters church..harborne.
st augustines...edgbaston..


i am still waiting for christ church..hagley road to get back to me..

lyn
 
Hi Lyn I think they may be in St Peter's Harborne just have to get conformation on a memorial inscription...thanks for your help..x
 
hi wend if its the st peters in church road harborne they told me they had not got them there...mind you they could have made a mistake..look forward to your findings...

lyn
 
Wendy
just to add a couple of things to Lyns very interesting information'

1. There was another William Scott listed in directories (from at least 1829, and he and the firm ended up as William Scott & Son, making things somewhat complicated.
2. Regarding when the firm became William & Charles Scott & Son, the 1862 directory lists William (junior) of W&C Scott & Son, and the firm is listed as such . therefore when the directory information was collected (possibly 1861 but certainly 1862) it was so-named.
3. For a period of a few years after William had left 11 Lench st, there was a James Scott, variously gunstocker or gunmaker, working at 11 Lench st (or court 3 Lench st , which is just behind no 11 or behind the next door house and so is probably the same address) . He was married to Ann, who was a camel hair pencil maker.. By the 1851 census ( St George, dist.26.p.19) they had gone to 59 Gt Hampton st . In 1841 they were at Constitution hill . the 1841 directory lists it as 88 Constitution hill. He is 30 in 1841 and has a 6 year old child. His wife was born in Birmingham, but he was born in Bradfield Combust , which is where William came from (just outside Bury st edmunds). He therefore same from the same place as William, probably before him, and later occupied the same premises. It seems too much of a coincidence for them not to be connected. Possibly he came first and William followed after hearing from him , or perhaps there was some other scenario. By 1861 Ann has been widowed, though her son James has taken up gunmaking.
4. In 1867-1873 the address is 1-6 Bagot St.. On the map below the Premier works is in red, with what would have been 1-6 Bagot st in a paler orangey colour. . In 1876 the address is listed as Premier works , Lancaster st, so they first moved to a small site on the edge of what would later expand to the final Premier works ..Whether previously they occupied the Tower site for a couple of years we cannot tell. The Tower is presumably the Royal Small Arms factory opposite.
Mike

map_c_1889_showing_W___C_Scotts_Premier_gun_works.jpg
 
I am pleased to say I took Michael out today for a hair raising drive to Harborne today, to see if I could find the Scott grave of Webley & Scott gun manufacturers. Well after a long trawl around the grave yard, being harrased by a drunk I eventually I found the grave of William Scotts wife Caroline nee Osbourne. I am amazed I did as its a very big graveyard with hundreds of graves. Someone must have been steering me around..lol

The memorial inscription also states, In loving rememberance of William M Scott born 1st May 1835 died February 4 1916. This would mean he is not buried with his wife. I am now wondering if William is in another grave in the churchyard as his funeral was at St Peters church Harborne.

Lyn I expect when you asked they probably didn't know the connection so I will contact the church and let them know.

I will post the pictures later.
 
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Wish I had read this thread before, I might have been able to help you! Funnily enough, I had my 'genealogy angel' on my shoulder when I was looking for a memorial in that churchyard as well.

The MIs for St Peter's have been indexed and transcribed. There's a copy in the library. I might be able to pop into the library on Friday if you need a quick lookup - let me know...
 
Thanks Leslie a look up for William M Scott would be great. He died on Feb 4th 1916 aged 81 at his home at 2 Augustus Road Edgbaston.

I did notice a large memorial in the churchyard with your surname on which is why I noticed it.
 
I am still unsure about this but I don't think William is in this grave only remembered on the memorial. Also there are three people in the grave and that is all that's allowed in a grave yard. A cemetery allows more.

s_Harborne_007.JPG
 
Wendy, I will look at the transcription book and make a note of anything that is likely to relevant. Are there likely to be any others at St Peter's?
Did you notice that on the Lambourne monument it refers to the Old and New Cemetery? I'm pretty sure that there was an explanation in the book - I'll look through my stuff (or probably quicker for me to look at the library!!) I don't think that I ever looked for the burials, so maybe that's another thing to do whilst I am there!
 
I am pleased to say I took Michael out today for a hair raising drive to Harborne today, to see if I could find the Scott grave of Webley & Scott gun manufacturers. Well after a long trawl around the grave yard, being harrased by a drunk I eventually I found the grave of William Scotts wife Caroline nee Osbourne. I am amazed I did as its a very big graveyard with hundreds of graves. Someone must have been steering me around..lol

The memorial inscription also states, In loving rememberance of William M Scott born 1st May 1835 died February 4 1916. This would mean he is not buried with his wife. I am now wondering if William is in another grave in the churchyard as his funeral was at St Peters church Harborne.

Lyn I expect when you asked they probably didn't know the connection so I will contact the church and let them know.

I will post the pictures later.

hi wend well you are getting somewhere now...at least you have found williams wife grave..as i said earlier they said that william was not buried here..just remembered that i was also advised that it is possable he was buried in a private churchyard but where to look i dont know...

lyn
 
I did notice there are many names connected to Key Hill, which in my family bible relates to Key Hill which was known as the old cemetery. I didn't stop long to read memorials as I was on my own and a bit concerned about the drunk. I wish I had now!
 
wend as william and his brother james died just a year apart it could be they are buried together..but where are they...as i said in my last post i wouldnt have a clue about how to find a private churchyard which has been suggested to me..

lyn
 
The best place to start is with an obituary if there is one as they usually state where the funeral is but that is not always where they are buried. I know William's funeral was at St Peter's in Harborne.
 
..........Harborne Church is one of the few missing from the Warwickshire List of MI's

Colin

Colin, I suspect that it's not listed in Warwickshire because up until 1970s (I think) Harborne was in Staffordshire :02.47-tranquillity:. It certainly was in the early 1900s.
Probably one of those that doesn't get done anywhere!!
 
Successful 1½ hours at the library :02.47-tranquillity:

Firstly, here is the only notice I could find of William's death. It appeared in the Birmingham Daily post on Monday March 7th 1916. I could find no report of the funeral (unusual) in either the Post or the Mail. However, the papers were full of WW I battle information and casulties, so maybe it isn't surprising.

scott_announcement.jpg
Despite your doubts, William WAS buried at Harborne - here is the entry on the burial register. William is the entry at the bottom:

scott_burial_1916.jpg

Here are all the Scotts that are mentioned on memorials in Harborne. The * after William just indicates that the name appears more than once on the page (in fact it is twice on your memorial)
scott_entries_harborne.jpg

Finally, here are the two plans of the churchyard at St Peter's - old and new sections.
harborne_churchyard_old.jpg harborne_churchyard_new.jpg
 
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Here is the transcription of the MI that you found on the memorial. Looking at the position of the MI in the book, the memorial is (I think) in section F of the churchyard (see plans on previous entry). What I should have done (and didn't think about until I got home), was look for the burial records for the others that are mentioned on here - to check that they actualy buried in Harborne. I have to go into town tomorrow, so I'll see if there is a free machine and check that.

MI_scott.jpg
 
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I am still unsure about this but I don't think William is in this grave only remembered on the memorial. Also there are three people in the grave and that is all that's allowed in a grave yard. A cemetery allows more.

View attachment 78693

Thank you so much Les for all the hard work. I just didn't think he was buried with his wife by the wording on the memorial, It usually states something like "and also" just goes to show. I am so pleased we have the right one and know where he is buried. I did find the memorial but didn't think he was there. I will save all you have found for my records. Thank you so much.
 
Part two....... :)

I've checked for the burials of everyone else mentioned on the memorial:
  • Eliza Morris Osborne (abode St John's, Harborne) bur March 7th 1898, age 63
  • Emma Osborne is not buried at St Peter's as far as I can see; there aren't that many burials and I went through a month either side. Could she be at Handsworth (or wherever Charles is)?
  • William M (see previous entries)
  • Caroline Ann Scott (abode 2 Augustus Rd), buried May 23 1912 age 76
So, I make it that there are three in the grave.
 
Thank you so much for your help Les. I am in contact with Colin he is as excited as me by all this new info. He phones me daily with new info. I must now colate it all for the Key Hill archive with the connections to St Peter's and wherever else.
 
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