• Welcome to this forum . We are a worldwide group with a common interest in Birmingham and its history. While here, please follow a few simple rules. We ask that you respect other members, thank those who have helped you and please keep your contributions on-topic with the thread.

    We do hope you enjoy your visit. BHF Admin Team

Saving our Inner-city Pubs

W

wessex

master brummie
Saving our Inner-city Pubs

A lot of us are interested in the pubs we remember from our youth.A lot of these are in inner-city areas.Many have already closed,many more are at risk of following them.The question is what can be done to save them?

Thirty years ago country pubs were in the same position.Drink drive laws meant they were not selling beer,or getting enough customers from their local areas.These are the same real problems faced by inner city pubs.Many locals are non english,and do not use pubs.People like ourselves who may well be tempted to call by won't as often because we're not looking to drive,and public transport at night is not a real option for many.

Town centre pubs were also struggling a few years back too,but many pubs have gone up market,and have benefited from the many new apartments built in the centre,hence a new customer base.Also whole areas have been rejuvinated,making them interesting to a clientele who would never have used them before,eg Broad St etc.

So back to inner-city pubs,any ideas? And can you quote some sucess stories,and what they've done to buck the trend?
 
I think some of the Inner City Pubs have had problems with drugs, and drug dealers using them to trade in.

Nick.
 
I don't think they can rejuvenate, times change and peoples habits change, a bit like when most of the old cinemas closed, and become bingo halls, now they are having a hard time.
 
brummie nick said:
I don't think they can rejuvenate, times change and peoples habits change, a bit like when most of the old cinemas closed, and become bingo halls, now they are having a hard time.
Click to expand...

Funny thing,but a lot of the bingo halls have now gone,but the cinemas came back into vogue in the 80s.
Was in the New Street Odeon the other day,quite busy,and they've certainly opened a few more around the place.

My point is that things can be done,and in some areas pubs have done stuff,eg the Lord Clifden in Hockley...but other pubs in the area have not done stuff,so close/struggle.
 
This discussion about pubs can be very confusing and may cause arguments but here goes. A man I know, he's not a friend, tried the pub business for a change of employment. He and his wife took over a pub that was doing o/k. Within two years it was shut down because of drunken louts and drugs. The same thing happened with the next two pubs they ran. In the last one, when they went on holiday a cellar check was carried out and there was a very large discrepancy with the stock. I don't know what he does these days but she is unemployed.This causes me to think that a lot of pub closures are bought about by bad management. How else would you explain how a pub can flourish and do well whilst the next pub up the road goes downhill and closes. I read a column in a newspaper yesterday about the NHS and another establishment spending large amounts of money making people aware of the dangers of alcohol because children as young as eight are being treated in A&E departments most weekends for alcohol abuse. The columnist wrote that it is not difficult to put this right. A total alcohol ban in the home for anyone under the age of 18. A return of the 'drunk and disorderly act' with a £2.000 fine for breaking said law. License withdrawal for any outlet selling to underage drinkers, and the £2.000 fine for adults buying or supplying underage drinkers. It may sound severe but if you know the cost of alcohol abuse to the NHS you will realise that it is a very serious problem.
 
The Rainbow in Digbeth has been doing well, because it is also a music venue for jazz and many genres of music. But it may have to close, because it is being threatened with a noise abatement order, because of one complaint. They have a petition to fight it on Facebook.

I suspect many more of the inner city pubs will continue to close, leaving just a handful that may then be cherished. I think there is no longer the demand for all the pubs.

Ann
 
Hi Wessex,

I think another important point to remember is that demographic changes to inner city populations have had a profound effect on pubs as well as shops and places of worship. Take for example Alum Rock / Saltley, almost all of the pubs along Alum Rock Rd have gone now as the regular users dwindled having died or moved away and the 'new' community generally didn't use them. I think the Brookhill is the only pub still in use there.

Macca
 
Stitcher you're right about bad management,and this thread is about ideas on how to run pubs in the right way,may be controversial,but open and honest debate has always been prone to that.

Ann B,welcome to the world of new labour PC lol,the Rainbow is a classic example of how an inner city pub can be rejuvinated...and unfortunately like the smoking ban another example of how the government likes to interfere with its laws etc.

Macca,you're dead right about population demographics,but country pubs got round this too.Remember how local workers couldn't afford to stay in their areas due to house price rises? That meant affluent suburb dwellers took their places,and they were less likely to use the pubs,as was your typical WC family.
The fact many pubs have closed means there is more trade to spread round those left open.No doubt there were far too many pubs,but that's changed now,how to keep those left going,after all those places figure strongly in our memories,when they go,so do things which hold our pasts together.
 
Morning all,
I think another part of the problem is the willingness of local councils to grant anyone and everyone a license to sell liquor.
Here in Brighton nearly every other shop sells alcohol, for instance one shop sells 6 cans of stella for a fiver.
I also think that 24 hour opening did no one any favours, people have only got a certain amount to spend, regardless of what they spend it on.
 
Well pointed out John,licences are easily got now,and of course pubs can't compete with cheap booze offers.In fact if Brighton is like Margate many bars have simply gone.
The 24 hours licence is also a valid point.Easy to forget that many backstreeters survived on 'afters' trade,often full with the curtains drawn at midnight.Now that 'perk' has gone with new opening hour laws.
 
Macca,you're dead right about population demographics,but country pubs got round this too.Remember how local workers couldn't afford to stay in their areas due to house price rises? That meant affluent suburb dwellers took their places,and they were less likely to use the pubs,as was your typical WC family

Wessex sorry to say the country pub did not get around the problem. They closed in droves and are still shutting. Two nice properties with in three miles of me are closed and unlikely to reopen. The modern housing developments have made no difference at all to the pubs in town.Two more have shut recently. In the town centres the Wetherspoon type pubs are making money ( not that I would visit at night on a weekend even in Worcester). Small pubs are going out of business because you cannot make a living in drinks profits alone. At one time just about every working man went to the pub after work, no longer .Times and habits change. It is sad to see part of our past disappear but they will go the way of Gin Shops and Beer sellers, no longer required. Amen....regards ....Arkrite...very much a pub type person.
 
The point that a lot of people seem to be missing is that there is more alcohol consumed today than in the past. The problem is that it is not being consumed on licensed premises. When all the city centre pubs were doing well, no one lived in the city centre? I suppose it could be considered good economics to sell alcohol cheap to encourage abuse of it then shut the pubs. After all, the breweries who owned the pubs years ago were only interested in the sales of alcohol. If the sales are bouyant whithout the pubs why keep them open. The land they are sitting on is worth a lot of money. I feel it is disgusting the way planning permision is given to a new housing application when it is known from the very outset that a local music venue will suffer when the accomodation is let/sold. Unfortunately a lot of these plans and schemes come under the same index as MPs expenses, grab it while you can.
 
Arkrite said:
Macca,you're dead right about population demographics,but country pubs got round this too.Remember how local workers couldn't afford to stay in their areas due to house price rises? That meant affluent suburb dwellers took their places,and they were less likely to use the pubs,as was your typical WC family

Wessex sorry to say the country pub did not get around the problem. They closed in droves and are still shutting. Two nice properties with in three miles of me are closed and unlikely to reopen. The modern housing developments have made no difference at all to the pubs in town.Two more have shut recently. In the town centres the Wetherspoon type pubs are making money ( not that I would visit at night on a weekend even in Worcester). Small pubs are going out of business because you cannot make a living in drinks profits alone. At one time just about every working man went to the pub after work, no longer .Times and habits change. It is sad to see part of our past disappear but they will go the way of Gin Shops and Beer sellers, no longer required. Amen....regards ....Arkrite...very much a pub type person.
Click to expand...

Depends where you look I expect.
Earlswood,Red Lion was almost on its way out when Digby took it over in '82.Now a very busy pub,and has been ever since he got it.He also did the same for the Black boy Knowle.Certainly if you radiate out from the Shirley/Solihull routes you'll see all kinds of pubs thriving.Even the same near Margate,most village pubs doing better than their inner city counterparts.Was even out Leicestershire last week,some nice village pubs doing a good trade.
Seems to me those pubs that went towards food,and became family friendly did best,especially with gardens.
 
Wessex it is not just New Labour that are PC mad, we've had it for a number of years with all parties. Birmingham got rid of christmas one year, and turned into something like 'winterfest'.
I used to like The Red Lion Earlswood, but not anymore, though I agree it is popular. We go to The Bull's Head Earlswood, The Bull's Head Meriden, The Boot Lapworth, The Durham Ox Shrewley (fabulous pub and food) and The Plough at Shustoke used to be a favourite. Have to say it has been our preference for a long time now to drive out to a country pub.
In the city centre, we go to The Victoria, when we go to The Alex. And I always meet friends in town at Bacchus, under The Burlington Hotel.
Re the smoking ban, I still do not understand why a few pubs could not have stayed as 'smoking' pubs. Or even a seperate room for smokers in a few pubs. I just don't see the point of a total ban. Nanny state again.

Ann
 
Wessex, The Wheatsheaf on the Bromyard to Worcester road is a large pub ,big car park,large garden with a pretty stream and refurbed kitchens.Idyllic but it breaks the people who try to run it.It is close to Bringsty Common at Whitbourne ,a real beauty spot.Another foody pub ,The Holly Tree has also closed yet again.
Village pubs started closing when the breathyliser came in. I can remember loads that now no longer look like pubs but are handsome village houses so recent closures are from a far smaller stock of pubs.Where one pub served a village you will find it now serves four or five and still needs outsider custom to survive.
With the population now in the process of being brainwashed about how antisocial drinking is how long will anysort of pub survive. In the future I can see us queueing at the doctors for note for our government decided daily allowance.
It will be back to the brewhouse out back then.
 
Drunks, drugs, violence, poor public transport, smoking ban, yuppie's who don't want us oldies in their pub, overpriced bar prices, extortionate taxi charges, loud modern music, nowhere to sit, P.C. etc etc. Inner City pubs have no chance and sadly it's too late to change them. Trouble is many of the smaller town pubs are the same now. Perhaps if pubs returned to the old fashioned idea of a "snug", "bar" & "smoke room" things would change for the better.
 
Ann B,we certainly have been to the same places.I grew up in Shirley,so saw those pubs from an early age.
New Labour,of course not the only PC brigade,but by far the worst.Smoking bans,minimum wage,and most council regulations have come from labour councils.This is not a political thread,but the tories have a tradition of supporting big brewies,so have legislated less in this area over the years.That said,all politicians should be seen,and not heard lol.

Arkrite,you paint a picture of village pub doom,while Ann B paints a picture of newer sucess about pubs I myself have seen come up well over a 20 year period.Again it does depend very much on area one looks at.
Certainly The Durham Ox Shrewley,and the near by Case is Altered have changed out of all recognition,and are now thriving concerns.It may well be that those with vision,well run,and perhaps with a bit of luck with position are doing well,while others may just be in the wrong position to attract the out of town trade.Certainly they rely on food more than alcohol.

chocks2,yes you've certainly hit on nuicances for the older drinker,but of course things like music can build up the occasional pub,a la Rainbow,Digbeth.
That beer prices need to come down in pubs is well proved by the popularity of Wetherspoons.Not everybody's favourite,but can't be beat for budget folks,and does prove how to fill a pub in a city.
 
Wessex,

We'll give The Case is Altered a try. I've just checked out the reviews, and sounds worth a visit.
If you grew up in Shirley, no doubt you have done the same rounds of pubs as myself. We've tried several along the Stratford Rd to Henley that have changed so much, and a lot of them are doing well. But so far we prefer the ones I mentioned in my previous post.
But always looking for another good pub.

Ann
 
Ann B said:
Wessex,

We'll give The Case is Altered a try. I've just checked out the reviews, and sounds worth a visit.
If you grew up in Shirley, no doubt you have done the same rounds of pubs as myself. We've tried several along the Stratford Rd to Henley that have changed so much, and a lot of them are doing well. But so far we prefer the ones I mentioned in my previous post.
But always looking for another good pub.

Ann
Click to expand...

Well if you're Sheldon then not exactly a long way off.:)
There's a wealth of pubs in my memory,but I moved abroad for 10 years,and only recently came back,now in Margate.Don't see that much of the area,but have folks living in Olton now,so stay there on visits.
Try the Bell in Tanworth,little pricey,but it's a la carte,not frozen chip teritory,or just use in on a nice day for a pint,sit outside watching their marvelous church.Take a walk in the church grounds,they even have 2 celebrities buried there.
There are of course others,but have not checked them out,like Weatheroak Hill,Washford Mill etc.But I expect you know the area better than me now.

Tim
 
Tim,

Before we moved to Somerset, we lived in Olton, sort of opposite The Lyndon Pub, which seems to be doing o.k. If we still lived there no doubt we would use it quite a lot. Great home made chips there! And they have live music some nights.
When we moved back we were surprised how much the pubs had changed. We don't mind paying a bit extra, if it's worth it. It's when you pay a fortune for rubbish, you never go back.

Ann
 
Ann B said:
Tim,

Before we moved to Somerset, we lived in Olton, sort of opposite The Lyndon Pub, which seems to be doing o.k. If we still lived there no doubt we would use it quite a lot. Great home made chips there! And they have live music some nights.
When we moved back we were surprised how much the pubs had changed. We don't mind paying a bit extra, if it's worth it. It's when you pay a fortune for rubbish, you never go back.

Ann
Click to expand...

My folks live off St Bernards,near the back of the Mere,so only about a mile away,if that.
Not been to the Lyndon for years,but glad it's doing ok.We lost the Golden Arrow of course,not much left in the area now,certainly nothing in walking distance for me.
Having been paying peanuts for food and drink abroad it does come as a shock to pay British prices.
 
I'll tell what a few things that in my opinion sounded the death knell of the local pub. Besides the recent anti pub legislation that is.

Brewery's or landlords wanting the buff lodges, dart team, domino teams and fishing clubs to pay hire charges for the rooms that they used. Another was the advent of Juke boxes and television in pubs. How can you have a conversation when there is loud music playing or people are telling you to shush because they are watching Crossroads.

This must make me sound like a real old moaner.

Phil
 
pmc1947 said:
I'll tell what a few things that in my opinion sounded the death knell of the local pub. Besides the recent anti pub legislation that is.

Brewery's or landlords wanting the buff lodges, dart team, domino teams and fishing clubs to pay hire charges for the rooms that they used. Another was the advent of Juke boxes and television in pubs. How can you have a conversation when there is loud music playing or people are telling you to shush because they are watching Crossroads.

This must make me sound like a real old moaner.

Phil
Click to expand...

Well said Phil.
Brewery greed put off customers long before the problems became accute.
TVs,Jukeboxes etc have a place,but only if you can keep them in a seperate room.The occasional big sporting event may well fill a pub,but it can put off regulars who do not want it.
Conversation was the basis of how pubs took off,you could always drink at home,but you went out for conversation,and paid a bit extra for the privelage.Many of the old pubs have more than one room,and as such it could be interesting if they were to put them to better use.

Oh and Phil,moan away,this is getting to be a good discussion,and people with local knowledge are what make it such.lol
 
Agree with everything you say Phil. I didn't know about the charges for the fishing clubs etc.
As for the large televisions, we walked into a pub in Coleshill, no one was talking, because they were all watching a match. There was no atmosphere at all. So we left without ordering a drink.
I think some of the pubs could bring back the Ploughman's Lunch. If we go out lunchtime, and just want a snack, there's no ploughman's, not even a cheese sandwich. Its baguettes, paninis and wraps. At least, when I asked at The Drum and Monkey Dorridge for a cheese sandwich and a portion of chips, I got it, even though it wasn't on the menu.

Ann
 
The Drum and Monkey Dorridge,do you remember when it was a real country pub Ann?
My college friend had the only house near it,as his father had bult it.We spent many a drunken night on the Davenports trad Bitter,before falling over the road.
 
Sorry if I sound down beat Wessex but I am talking rural village/ hamlet pubs when it comes to closures. Chain pub come eateries are doing very well in the cities , on the outskirts and arterial roads. We use the them alot. Sadly small pubs are not wheel chair friendly as much as I would like to visit them.

I read in the Morning Advertiser that Marstons were looking to raise £170 million to spend on sites in city centres. The city centre pub will survive with this sort of investment but it will be more like Wetherspoons than the much loved bar/snug pub that we have lost so many of. These big superpubs make economic sense ,the Wetherspoons have proved it Marstons will follow and no doubt Green King. Marstons are building nine pubs this year all in large cities or towns . I have not seen the plans but would put money on it that they are large ones. In ten to fifteen years most of us who remember the pub at the end of the street will be gone or to old to use them.The younger generation who expect plenty of choice in food and drink, plenty of space to congregate in hoards are and still will be the big spenders.Planners and Financiers ( unless you are a Banker) think long term, are not always right,but the future is as they plan it.
I sat watching " Heartbreak"? about the copper in the 1960s. My grandson of eighteen could not believe I was in the Police at that time. Yes I drove Anglia Pandas, wore a strange uniform and sometimes rode an antique bike. I also drank in scruffy two room pubs, ate cheese or ham rolls and stood on a thread bare lino floor because there were so few stools.Most of those pubs have gone, the remainder changed out of all recognition serving food I had not then heard off and most done up like a tarts parlour, as they say but I cannot vouch for.

Toby Inns have started Ploughman's lunches and you can get cheese or meat sandwiches.
One pub in Worcester , by Diglis Basin does Baps and Rolls like days of old but now kept fresh in cling film. I can recommend them.

About time I got some sleep, cheerio....arkrite.
 
Arkrite,what a nice responce.

Yes of course a lot of the old ways will die,in fact this thread was about how pubs can adapt,not survive in present form.Economics drives change,if we look back at pubs in the early 1800s we wouldn't recognise them.The style you're referring to came about in the latter half of the Victorian era.

Wetherspoons has been a revelation,and kept the prices down in brewery owned pubs as a result.OK not for everyone,but good food,and a great choice of ales,is it such a bad idea? In fact their system can be looked at and learned from a lot? And more importantly can we apply those lessons in some way to inner city pubs?

You know it would be an idea if we could keep some pubs in old fashioned condition,perhaps with council funding,then we could lay on a ring and ride type scheme for the drinkers.Pointless going to a pub like that and not drinking.Oh and yes put in a ramp and suitable toilet.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top