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Queens Head Pub Dartmouth Street

Astoness

Astoness

TRUE BRUMMIE MODERATOR
Staff member
would anyone know the name of this pub please...

thanks folks

lyn
 

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  • Bordesley - Dartmouth Street - Copy.jpg
    Bordesley - Dartmouth Street - Copy.jpg
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Not sure of the answer or the date but Kelly's 1913 gives Dartmouth Arms (corner of Heneage Street), Raven Inn (nearer to Gt Lister Street), Old Green Man (corner of Richard Street), Grand Junction Inn (corner of Chester Street),


Janice
 
Midland Pubs site lists these pubs that were on Dartmouth Street:
Crown and Anchor
Dartmouth Arms
Globe
Grand Junction Inn
Lord Raglan
Malt Shovel
Old Green Man
Queen's Head
Rolling Mill
 
From looking at the picture, it's the New(?) (?) Inn. It's not on the corner of any street which means not the Raven, Grand Junction, or Old Green Man. The name is on the wall above the bracket for the lamp. Inn looks clear enough but the first word or two - I'd say two short words of 3-4 letters each - are unclear. I'd guess New Hill or New Hall but that would be a guess. None of these names seem to be listed on either of the sites mentioned. The other shops are a coffee house (all I can make out) and Dartmouth (?) Stores or Sales. If there's a better copy somewhere maybe I could see more. Is this from a newspaper? The dotted effect looks like it.
 
thanks wam..jenny and janice i can make out the word inn so could be the grand junction but not sure

lyn
 
I can see INN but the rest looks too short for Grand Junction. I agreed with wam but the nearest New Inn is Great Lister Street and not near Dartmouth Street as far as I can tell.

A search on here https://pubshistory.com/Warwickshire/index.shtml reveals the names of several places which are in Kelly's as Beer retailers with no establishment name like the Malt Shovel at 152 Dartmouth Street in Kelly's as just Joseph Beckett beer retailer..

Janice
 
thanks janice i too thought the rest of the name looked too short to say grand junction...thanks also for the extra info

lyn
 
https://pubshistory.com/Warwickshire/Birmingham1915/BirminghamBeer1915DE.shtml

Lists two places on Dartmouth Street "Ernest Dalton, 163 Dartmouth street" and "George Henry Doyle, 130 Dartmouth street". I disregarded Grand Junction for the length of the name and because pjmburns says it was on the corner of Chester Street and there's no corner the other side in the picture.
https://pubshistory.com/Warwickshire/Birmingham1892/BirminghamBeer1892M.shtml

has "Mrs Sarah Moseley, 145 dartmouth street".

https://pubshistory.com/Warwickshire/Birmingham1911/AstonDuddeston1911.shtml

has "130 Dartmouth street, Beerhouse, Bowsher108 Dartmouth street, Beerhouse, Void & Uninhabited".

If anyone has access to a trade directory from 1892/1911/1915 they could probably find out where the coffee shop and Dartmouth Stores (Sales or whatever it was called) were. That might lead to a name and address for whatever the pub was in that directory.
 
The 1899 Kelly's lists "coffee rms" at 127 Dartmouth Street but the properties next are a greengrocer and a hardware dlr. It is the same in 1900,1905 and 1908 (by then the hardware is a clothes dealer). The only other thing is that there is a dairyman next door but one to the Raven. However, I found a photo which was supposed to be the Raven (https://www.closedpubs.co.uk/warwickshire/birmingham_b7_raven.html) and it seemed to show it on a corner although it is not listed as such in Kelly's. In addition there are several maltsters and at least 5 beer retailers.

Janice
 
On top of those doors in the centre of the picture, are they numbers ? could it be 25 or 29, I can't really tell. I think its something Stores though.
 
wam said:
https://pubshistory.com/Warwickshire/Birmingham1915/BirminghamBeer1915DE.shtml

Lists two places on Dartmouth Street "Ernest Dalton, 163 Dartmouth street" and "George Henry Doyle, 130 Dartmouth street". I disregarded Grand Junction for the length of the name and because pjmburns says it was on the corner of Chester Street and there's no corner the other side in the picture.
https://pubshistory.com/Warwickshire/Birmingham1892/BirminghamBeer1892M.shtml

has "Mrs Sarah Moseley, 145 dartmouth street".

https://pubshistory.com/Warwickshire/Birmingham1911/AstonDuddeston1911.shtml

has "130 Dartmouth street, Beerhouse, Bowsher108 Dartmouth street, Beerhouse, Void & Uninhabited".

If anyone has access to a trade directory from 1892/1911/1915 they could probably find out where the coffee shop and Dartmouth Stores (Sales or whatever it was called) were. That might lead to a name and address for whatever the pub was in that directory.
Click to expand...

george henry doyle is my gt grandad although not direct as he and his wife adopted my nan when she was just 8 months old after she lost both parents within a day of each other....i shall have to look at my notes on the pubs that he ran..trust me to cause a problem lol

lyn
 
Last edited:
terryb18 said:
On top of those doors in the centre of the picture, are they numbers ? could it be 25 or 29, I can't really tell. I think its something Stores though.
Click to expand...

i agree terry looks like no 25 or 29...if we can pin that down as being in dartmouth st then we should be able to get the name of the pub..
 
I think the number is 251 according to the 1903 edition of Kelly's Joseph Davis Tinplate Worker making the pub 255 James Mole beer retailer. If you look up the census records for 255 Dartmouth Street it may give a later name for the pub. In the meantime I'll look in later versions of Kelly's
 
It was still a beer retailer in 1913, but my next Kelly's to that is 1937 and it isn't listed then.
 
hi guys
IWould go along with wam on this one and cocentrate on the coffee rooms sus that one and i think you will get the pub
and i do not beleive it is the raven Inn; yes its an INN BUT THE FIRST PART DO NOT MATCH UP TO THE ADDRES ALAN ASTONIAN;
 
thanks phil i will check my kellys for the other years tonight

lyn
 
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pjmburns said:
The 1899 Kelly's lists "coffee rms" at 127 Dartmouth Street but the properties next are a greengrocer and a hardware dlr. It is the same in 1900,1905 and 1908 (by then the hardware is a clothes dealer). The only other thing is that there is a dairyman next door but one to the Raven. However, I found a photo which was supposed to be the Raven (https://www.closedpubs.co.uk/warwickshire/birmingham_b7_raven.html) and it seemed to show it on a corner although it is not listed as such in Kelly's. In addition there are several maltsters and at least 5 beer retailers.

Janice
Click to expand...
We could take the coffee house in the picture as 127, which makes Dartmouth Stores the hardware shop, and the pub ...
As to the number before and after Dartmouth Stores in the picture, I suppose that could be 125 but it looks more like some kind of bottle design or 25% so it may or may not be relevant.
 
Just to summarise. the Dartmouth arms (no 61), the Raven (no 121), the Grand Junction (no 225) and the Old Green Man (no 173) were all on corners so can be eliminated. Of the beer retailers listed in the 1900 Kellys, nos 130 was on a corner which leaves us 112, 163, 255 & 250
 
thanks for that info mike....i think the pub must be at no 255 or even 250 but i cant find it in kellys with the given name of something inn.....

lyn
 
1915 Kelly's has Mrs Elizabeth Smith listed as a beer retailer at 255, however, 250 is also listed to Charles Phipps but neither have an Inn name. By 1940 Kelly's has 250 as coffee rooms with Jn Fras Smith and it is the last listed property before Mill street. (I can't access between 1915 and 1940 online).

Janice
 
In the 1901 census, James mole at 255 is listed as a publican manager, so it was a pub, but no name
In the 1901 census no 163 was The Globe Inn, which, to me, doesn't look like the vague outline on the wall
 
1911 census lists 250 Dartmouth Street as The Rolling Mill Inn licensed tenant given as Edmund Morrall. The houses next on the census are court houses. 225 is the Grand Junction. 255 is the Queens Head listed to Mrs Smith. As I can only find them on the summary book at the moment I can't see if there is a coffee room nearby for either.

Janice
 
Janice

Looking at the photo again it's entirely possible that the number painted on the wall is 257 and not 251 as I thought which still makes the pub the beer retailer at number 255. So we are still looking for the name of the pub at 255 Dartmouth Street which was between Chester St & Aston Rd.
 
Janice

I made an error earlier when I said that the beer house at 255 was listed to a James Mole, I should have said it was listed to a Mrs Elizabeth Smith which tallies with your census record for the Queens Head Inn, So that must be the name of the pub that Lyn is looking for.
 
I think the name Lyn is looking for must be the Queen's head although it is not listed in Kelly's. However, it is on the summary page of the census (in Elizabeth Smith's entry it just says publican). Here are the entries.

Coffee House.jpgqueens Head.jpgSummary.jpg

Janice
 
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