-
Welcome to this forum . We are a worldwide group with a common interest in Birmingham and its history. While here, please follow a few simple rules. We ask that you respect other members, thank those who have helped you and please keep your contributions on-topic with the thread.
We do hope you enjoy your visit. BHF Admin Team
Mrs Harris
- Thread starter dennis
- Start date
- Status
R
Rod
Guest
Dennis thats a very moving part of the National Memorial Arboretum up at Arlewas. I read a leaflet in there outlining one poor mans fate, it included a letter to his mum, I'm not ashamed to say it brought a lump to my throat.
https://www.memorialtreesuk.org.uk/
What I don't understand is the reasoning behind not pardoning these men who were so ill with trauma of battle.
Good posting I reckon Dennis Thank You
J
Jerry
Guest
And the generals and politicians had praise and medals heaped upon them for leading a whole generation of innocent kids to their deaths
I think it's time everyone took another look at that as well
It's not a new idea but it's worth repeating that if every country's leaders were required to put their own children in the front line at the outset of war then war would cease to exist tomorrow
And kids would not be executed for not wanting to die
I think it's time everyone took another look at that as well
It's not a new idea but it's worth repeating that if every country's leaders were required to put their own children in the front line at the outset of war then war would cease to exist tomorrow
And kids would not be executed for not wanting to die
Peter Walker
gone but not forgotten
The terrible thing about World War 1 is that no country wanted it. No country was threatened, but some influential people saw some gain for themselves, their business or their 'cause' in having a scrap. Not that they got involved themselves of course - they have others to do that. The excuse was the treaties they had made with their mates in other countries, often in secret.
When I started in local government 51 years ago, I soon thought that local politics was dirty, but not as bad as national politics. As for international politics, or 'diplomacy', that was downright criminal.
I could go on about Blair, who - I first thought - would bring in the ethical foreign policy promised by the respected Robin Cook, but then for no reason I can understand, he decided "we" should invade Afghanistan, and after that do the same in Iraq.
It must be terrible for our troops, but we have the benefits of weapons of mass destruction which we do not allow certain other countries to have. So our losses are far worse than those of those fighting on the other side, not to mention civilians.
Sorry to have rantedso much.
Peter
When I started in local government 51 years ago, I soon thought that local politics was dirty, but not as bad as national politics. As for international politics, or 'diplomacy', that was downright criminal.
I could go on about Blair, who - I first thought - would bring in the ethical foreign policy promised by the respected Robin Cook, but then for no reason I can understand, he decided "we" should invade Afghanistan, and after that do the same in Iraq.
It must be terrible for our troops, but we have the benefits of weapons of mass destruction which we do not allow certain other countries to have. So our losses are far worse than those of those fighting on the other side, not to mention civilians.
Sorry to have rantedso much.
Peter
SuBee
master brummie
I cant even begin to imagine the horrors of witnessing what that young man and so many others had to, then to be shot by your own, then a 20 year old's family informed of how he died, and presumeably the stigma and retribution from friends, neighbours and family?
I hope Mrs Harris is successful and leads the way for others, and I also hope that in some small way it will illustrate the futility of the loss of young lives today
I hope Mrs Harris is successful and leads the way for others, and I also hope that in some small way it will illustrate the futility of the loss of young lives today
B
Brummie Fusilier
Guest
I know more than anyone that this is a very emotive topic. However you must not fall into the trap of placing todays sentiments on an event long past. As terrible as the events were what we have to appreciate is that it was a very different world then. One luxury we all certainly have that those men didn't is that we are all masters of our own destiny. Also don't be fooled by thinkiing that the men who went blindly to war did not know what they were letting themselves in for. The men continued to volunteer throughout the war.
Another myth is the 70's revisionist idea that these men were sent to their deaths by Officers and politicians who had never seen the front. Kitchener visited the front at Gallipolli and immediately ordered the evacuation. Several senior ranking officers were killed in action on the front line in all theatres.
You also have to ask the question as to why the British Army never mutineed in the field. Barbaric as this may seem in todays world it had an effect on discipline and ensured the British Army remained effective throughout the war.
Another myth is the 70's revisionist idea that these men were sent to their deaths by Officers and politicians who had never seen the front. Kitchener visited the front at Gallipolli and immediately ordered the evacuation. Several senior ranking officers were killed in action on the front line in all theatres.
You also have to ask the question as to why the British Army never mutineed in the field. Barbaric as this may seem in todays world it had an effect on discipline and ensured the British Army remained effective throughout the war.
Peter as regards your comments that these young volunteers
knew what they were letting them selves in for? I query that point,
no one could visulise that they would spend so much time in the front line
with all the horror that was going on, mates being killed by their sides
then of course,there was the new weapon,gas,that no one knew of, or how to counteract it
No, Peter, our boys were too courageous to mutiny thank god.
and they did receive orders from above,why else would they walk in front of machine gun fire????
knew what they were letting them selves in for? I query that point,
no one could visulise that they would spend so much time in the front line
with all the horror that was going on, mates being killed by their sides
then of course,there was the new weapon,gas,that no one knew of, or how to counteract it
No, Peter, our boys were too courageous to mutiny thank god.
and they did receive orders from above,why else would they walk in front of machine gun fire????
B
Brummie Fusilier
Guest
Dennis,
early in the war I agree those first volunteers could not have known. However as the war progressed and news of casualties gradually filtered back of course the folks back home in blighty became aware. None more so than after the 1st July 1916. Still the men continued to come forward despite conscription men still volunteered.When you say visualise are you talking from a modern perspective. On reflection and with the hiindsight of time it is too easy to confuse modern mind with Edwardian mindset.
Regading spending time in the front line with the exeption of Gallipoli and Mesopotamia where there was no respite and contrary to popular belief the average time spent in the front line on the Western Front was little more than a few weeks at a time.
The effects of gas were very shocking but the measures to counteract it's effects were almost immediate. The first rudimentary defense against it by urinating on a pair of socks or spare puttees was not discovered by accident. A Canadian doctor who quickly realised the acidity of the gas could be nuetaralised by the alkiline in the urine soon made this common knowledge.
The French German and Russsians all suffered tremendous casualties. All were as courageous as our troops but still they committed mutiny.
The issue of recieving orders from above of course you are right but there were as many good generals as there were bad ones.
early in the war I agree those first volunteers could not have known. However as the war progressed and news of casualties gradually filtered back of course the folks back home in blighty became aware. None more so than after the 1st July 1916. Still the men continued to come forward despite conscription men still volunteered.When you say visualise are you talking from a modern perspective. On reflection and with the hiindsight of time it is too easy to confuse modern mind with Edwardian mindset.
Regading spending time in the front line with the exeption of Gallipoli and Mesopotamia where there was no respite and contrary to popular belief the average time spent in the front line on the Western Front was little more than a few weeks at a time.
The effects of gas were very shocking but the measures to counteract it's effects were almost immediate. The first rudimentary defense against it by urinating on a pair of socks or spare puttees was not discovered by accident. A Canadian doctor who quickly realised the acidity of the gas could be nuetaralised by the alkiline in the urine soon made this common knowledge.
The French German and Russsians all suffered tremendous casualties. All were as courageous as our troops but still they committed mutiny.
The issue of recieving orders from above of course you are right but there were as many good generals as there were bad ones.
B
Brummie Fusilier
Guest
An absolute myth 
seriously misconceived and now entrenched in to our armchair historian culture.
Good to meet you Dennis
seriously misconceived and now entrenched in to our armchair historian culture. Good to meet you Dennis
B
Brummie Fusilier
Guest
Question to prove a point: Who suffered the greatest casualties at Gallipopli during 1915? Answers on a virtual postcode please more than 1 answer accepted. The first correct answer gets a drink on me in the bar.
Pomgolian
Kiwi Brummie
:angel: Colin's Great uncle
In Memory of:
MABER, Pte George Fredrick 6/967 Canterbury Regiment, N.Z.E.F. New Zealand . Died 25/04/1915 Lonepine Memorial Gallipoli (Wounded at Gallipoli, boat blown up while being transported to hospital ship).
Chris :angel:
George's family
In Memory of:
MABER, Pte George Fredrick 6/967 Canterbury Regiment, N.Z.E.F. New Zealand . Died 25/04/1915 Lonepine Memorial Gallipoli (Wounded at Gallipoli, boat blown up while being transported to hospital ship).
Chris :angel:
George's family
O
O.C.
Guest
There is a very thin line between Killing in War, and Murder in Peace as for the rights and wrongs of it all Man is to primative to know the answer.
I don't think we will ever know as long as mankind exists
I don't think we will ever know as long as mankind exists
Peter,
If I remember correct??
the #cas. at Gallopoli were as follows
"Johnny" Turk 52,000, odd
our boys (all nations) 52'000 odd
and if Roger Keyes had had his way.
he would have saved 1,000s
I do stand to be corrected Peter friend. O0
But anyway, it was a rotten war wasn't it? as all war's are
If I remember correct??
the #cas. at Gallopoli were as follows
"Johnny" Turk 52,000, odd
our boys (all nations) 52'000 odd
and if Roger Keyes had had his way.
he would have saved 1,000s
I do stand to be corrected Peter friend. O0
But anyway, it was a rotten war wasn't it? as all war's are
T
tigerlily
Guest
Hello Peter! 
I'm writing this with regard to your previous posts. You are obviously an expert of this topic, but are you writing with a historians view or a compassionate view?
I know a little of your grandfathers history, so I am sure you are aware of the atrocities soldiers endured on a daily basis.
You say that:
The only way people could have really known what it was really like, would be talking to close family who were soldiers. There was no sky, internet or even tv's! The average working class family would probably not have access to media such as newspapers. I think many joined through peer group pressure or by being cajoled or co-erced in some way! Many who joined were babies themselves - many lied about their age. Surely a "man" of 18 has not matured fully to understand the nature of warfare?
You only have to read the poetry of Sigfried Sassoon or Wilfred Owen, to understand some of the horrors they faced. As Wilfred Owen wrote to his Mother (after coming out of the front line for the first time):
His poems, such as Dulce et Decorum Est, Anthem for Doomed Youth and Mental Cases are harrowing and are a testament to what went on during those long four years.
What was the outcome of it all? The only thing I can think of is World War II. We crippled Germany economically and defensively in the 20's, it caused so much resentment, and gave rise to Hitler (which is another story!ÂÂ
).
Those soldiers were cannon fodder, simple as that. I think that Mrs Harris is rightly justified in appealing on her Fathers behalf. if it had been my father, I would have done exactly the same. Those men were heroes, maybe they should have mutineed?
Anyone who saw The Last Tommy on BBC1 recently, must have been moved to tears (as I was), seeing those men at 107, 108, going back. Some of them going for the first time in 90 years, reluctant to go because it brought back some dreadful memories.
I'm writing this, not to have a go (honestly!), but in memory of my family who served during that time. In particular, for my Great-grandfather's brother (John Magee), who came back alive, but badly shellshocked. He remained mentally scarred (and ill) for the rest of his life. Just as many others were...
All the best! O0
Tigerlily :cat:
I'm writing this with regard to your previous posts. You are obviously an expert of this topic, but are you writing with a historians view or a compassionate view?
I know a little of your grandfathers history, so I am sure you are aware of the atrocities soldiers endured on a daily basis.
You say that:
The only way people could have really known what it was really like, would be talking to close family who were soldiers. There was no sky, internet or even tv's! The average working class family would probably not have access to media such as newspapers. I think many joined through peer group pressure or by being cajoled or co-erced in some way! Many who joined were babies themselves - many lied about their age. Surely a "man" of 18 has not matured fully to understand the nature of warfare?
You only have to read the poetry of Sigfried Sassoon or Wilfred Owen, to understand some of the horrors they faced. As Wilfred Owen wrote to his Mother (after coming out of the front line for the first time):
His poems, such as Dulce et Decorum Est, Anthem for Doomed Youth and Mental Cases are harrowing and are a testament to what went on during those long four years.
What was the outcome of it all? The only thing I can think of is World War II. We crippled Germany economically and defensively in the 20's, it caused so much resentment, and gave rise to Hitler (which is another story!ÂÂ
).Those soldiers were cannon fodder, simple as that. I think that Mrs Harris is rightly justified in appealing on her Fathers behalf. if it had been my father, I would have done exactly the same. Those men were heroes, maybe they should have mutineed?
Anyone who saw The Last Tommy on BBC1 recently, must have been moved to tears (as I was), seeing those men at 107, 108, going back. Some of them going for the first time in 90 years, reluctant to go because it brought back some dreadful memories.
I'm writing this, not to have a go (honestly!), but in memory of my family who served during that time. In particular, for my Great-grandfather's brother (John Magee), who came back alive, but badly shellshocked. He remained mentally scarred (and ill) for the rest of his life. Just as many others were...
All the best! O0
Tigerlily :cat:
O
O.C.
Guest
I think that what has come about by this topic, is it was intended, or the men were told that it was a war someone could win, but it soon became clear it then became a war of arbitration but that was not understood at the time.
This is an argument that no one can win because the dead cannot speak neither can you put words in the mouths of the dead.
And I know that if you asked the men after the Great War who came back about their feelings towards HaigÂÂ
For everyone who said “He ought to be shot”, there would be another who would say “What a Great Man” So what does that prove?
Half wore their medals with pride the other half slung them in the dustbin or theyÂÂ
were put in a drawer and forgotÂÂ
The Soldiers themselves could not agree, so what chance do we have?
I remember vividly growing up, half the street wore their poppy with pride.
But the folk who might have lost a loved one or for some other reason hated all it stood for. So in “Peace” the people were dividedÂÂ
So we are getting away from the topic of the subject and going down a road which will only fuel more anger on the subject by people who know a lot about the Great War and the people who do not and the folk who put “Why” in the books of remembrance in the war graves. When instead should be writing the words  “It must never be allowed to happen again”
Us old un’s have very strong feelings on the subject which no one will ever change
Which does not make us right or wrong
Man has been fighting since the beginning of time and is still fighting now and all of us reading this; know it will never stop till we have destroyed ourselves.
And it all starts by arguing
I should add that I have been an visited most of the War Graves on the Western Front and Walked all over Gallipoli trying to understand............ Which I could not
This is an argument that no one can win because the dead cannot speak neither can you put words in the mouths of the dead.
And I know that if you asked the men after the Great War who came back about their feelings towards HaigÂÂ
For everyone who said “He ought to be shot”, there would be another who would say “What a Great Man” So what does that prove?
Half wore their medals with pride the other half slung them in the dustbin or theyÂÂ
were put in a drawer and forgotÂÂ
The Soldiers themselves could not agree, so what chance do we have?
I remember vividly growing up, half the street wore their poppy with pride.
But the folk who might have lost a loved one or for some other reason hated all it stood for. So in “Peace” the people were dividedÂÂ
So we are getting away from the topic of the subject and going down a road which will only fuel more anger on the subject by people who know a lot about the Great War and the people who do not and the folk who put “Why” in the books of remembrance in the war graves. When instead should be writing the words  “It must never be allowed to happen again”
Us old un’s have very strong feelings on the subject which no one will ever change
Which does not make us right or wrong
Man has been fighting since the beginning of time and is still fighting now and all of us reading this; know it will never stop till we have destroyed ourselves.
And it all starts by arguing
I should add that I have been an visited most of the War Graves on the Western Front and Walked all over Gallipoli trying to understand............ Which I could not
R
Rod
Guest
If we look at research and books by the likes of Dr Gary Sheffield it would suggest that a lot of beliefs we hold are to some extent misguided "hand me downs" from one generation to another. But whatever side of the fence you sit. Mistakes were made, and some of those men who were in charge made huge mistakes causing the deaths of many young men. Haigh included... I know very little of the subject of WW1 and what I do know I fail to understand. But this topic is about the injustice and murder by our own hands of frightened men.....why is fear a crime punishable by death? Why are the feelings and mental state produced by the trauma of war a crime punishable by death?
O
O.C.
Guest
Rod
The only person or persons who could answer that are Dead and we are all left to wonder
The only person or persons who could answer that are Dead and we are all left to wonder
R
Rod
Guest
NO I disagree, it's generals and goverments who have the answer, not those who were murdered!!
O
O.C.
Guest
We withhold medicines from people who are dying that cannot afford to pay, treat the mentally ill badly and ought to be ashamed of how some of our old folk spend the last years of their lives while pandering to the dregs of society and listening to so called “Do Gooders” who turn a blind eye to what goes on around them
How many people died each year because of Government action? I bet the number are in there 1000’s but because we don’t know, we do nothing
That is the Government we have at present in the past and the future
Who puts them in Power?
The government govern by the will of the people, which is not my will
So we all go round in a circle and it all becomes a blame game
There is not a Government on Earth that works for the good or benefit of the decent folk
And we will never get it right because we do not know how to
How many people died each year because of Government action? I bet the number are in there 1000’s but because we don’t know, we do nothing
That is the Government we have at present in the past and the future
Who puts them in Power?
The government govern by the will of the people, which is not my will
So we all go round in a circle and it all becomes a blame game
There is not a Government on Earth that works for the good or benefit of the decent folk
And we will never get it right because we do not know how to
K
Kate
Guest
Chris I'm with you here - what a waste of life for the Turkish people and what a waste of life from our Aussies and Kiwis fighting a political war.
I am waiting for the film Kakoda to come out in the next few weeks. My dad was a part of that campaign where the Aussies had very poor supplies and support etc but they managed, or at least my dad did. I have seen him on a news clip on ANZAC day trudging off the Kakoda trail with a big grin on his face - weighing about 7 stone just happy to get through it. He was riddled with malaria and suffered from "war nerves" for most of his life. He had no bitterness though - said that all the soldiers were doing their duty. And that is the truth of it as far as I can see. The men(now women) of all sides go to war and kill their enemies - the people that their rulers say are enemies for whatever stupid reason!! Oil, money, religion - crikey when are we going to learn!!!!
Put the past behind you! It's our only hope! Reach out to a neighbour I reckon - smile at a person who is not of your race/colour/creed as you walk down the street. Otherwise we will always be at war with SOMEONE! :smitten:
I am waiting for the film Kakoda to come out in the next few weeks. My dad was a part of that campaign where the Aussies had very poor supplies and support etc but they managed, or at least my dad did. I have seen him on a news clip on ANZAC day trudging off the Kakoda trail with a big grin on his face - weighing about 7 stone just happy to get through it. He was riddled with malaria and suffered from "war nerves" for most of his life. He had no bitterness though - said that all the soldiers were doing their duty. And that is the truth of it as far as I can see. The men(now women) of all sides go to war and kill their enemies - the people that their rulers say are enemies for whatever stupid reason!! Oil, money, religion - crikey when are we going to learn!!!!
Put the past behind you! It's our only hope! Reach out to a neighbour I reckon - smile at a person who is not of your race/colour/creed as you walk down the street. Otherwise we will always be at war with SOMEONE! :smitten:
O
O.C.
Guest
Chris
Thought you might like a Photo I took of Lone Pine Gallipoli
Thought you might like a Photo I took of Lone Pine Gallipoli
R
Rod
Guest
I will split this topic at some point this evening into two because it is two things we are talking about here!
- Status