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Jaguar Land Rover

G

gary jordan

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Please support the Birmingham Mail's campaign:

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Please sign the No 10 petition (UK ONLY)
https://petitions.number10.gov.uk/HelpJLR/

The Best car to made in Brum for years the XF:
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There is a big debate at present here on this topic. Whether or not ordinary folks tax dollars should be used to prop up the manufacture of luxury items that they could never afford to purchase and the propping up of gold plated pension schemes that they have never had the opportunity to take part in. If the business model has a reasonable chance of success and possibly the support is in the form of stock purchase and the unions and members are prepared to make serious consessions in the form of entitlements and pay in order to compete....these are all questions that have to be answered. It will be all money down the drain if it will not fly. In the States Chapter 11 might be a better alternative.
 
It's not often I get hot under the collar, but I do when talk turns to 'our' car industry. I agree totally with what Rupert says, by the way.

I have been employed for over 35 years in supplying components to the UK car industry, and I can say without fear of contradiction that it has been responsible, though its draconian purchasing policies, of putting more UK companies out of business than the Luftwaffe ever did. All car manufacturers are concerned about is themselves. Even as I speak my firm is being hit with demands to reduce our selling prices by crazy figures, as high as 20% in some cases. How on earth can we do this when our own overheads are rising all the time? When the £ and the Euro are almost at parity and we have to import most of our materials?

Way back when British Leyland was in trouble, the pressure they applied to suppliers to reduce prices was intense, and I could produce a very long list of local component manufacturers who are no more - how many jobs were lost due to Leyland's basic inefficiency and their relentless purchasing policies I really couldn't say, but it must have been tens of thousands. They took for ever to pay their surviving suppliers, too. I hate to say it, but when MG-Rover finally closed its doors I gave a small cheer - and at the same time felt very, very bad about their own employees who lost their jobs. In the last 6 months alone about a dozen UK component suppliers have ceased trading, and I fear that there will be more.

As I see it, to maintain a viable motor industry we must go back to absolute basics and return to the times when what we now take as standard fittings (i.e., air-conditioning, electric seats, sound systems, climate control, etc) become optional extras. I'll say this for Tata, at least they tried to produce a totally basic vehicle that anyone could afford - but apparently don't have the money to built the production line!

Sorry, but I won't be signing any petitions. The car manufacturers must be made to see sense - and that doesn't mean sending their executives to the White House, begging-bowls in hand, via private jets!

Rant over.

Big Gee.
 
I am giving this a boost to hopefully get positions here that are contra to the above two replies or in support of if you will. Note that this is a much wider based subject than for just the UK. and worthy of thought at this juncture.
 
Big Gee,You must have the ability to read my mind because I was formulating in my head how to say exaxtly that.
 
Stitcher said:
Big Gee,You must have the ability to read my mind because I was formulating in my head how to say exaxtly that.
Click to expand...

Stitcher,

Well, yes, I can read thoughts, actually...with the exception of my own!

Not just the car industry that treats its suppliers like dirt. Same with white goods (washing machines, tumble driers, etc). My company is involved here, too. All they are interested in is producing rubbish products at the lowest price. I was once told (in secret, of course) that a washing-machine is designed only to last between 3 and 4 years. When it wears out, the owner will just go and buy a new one and not bother about repairs....

A couple of years ago I was in the office of some whizz-kid in a car-parts company, and he was trying his hardest to force down our prices. We put up as much of an argument as we could, and then this idiot says that he'll send his engineers down to our company to show us how to make our products more efficiently. Fine, we said, but only if we can come and look around your factory to tell you how to make your products more efficiently. So arrogant was this 30-something twerp that it took him a good half-hour before he realised we were joking. Am I wrong in being happy to say that his company went bust last year?

Big Gee
 
I'm afraid I'd have to side with those who would wish the government to be cautious with its funds - whatever the size of the company, Jaguar Land-Rover is no longer British owned, what guarantees would this country have that any funding would be repaid, jobs remain, or the factory even remain open, assuming anyone can afford to buy their products in sufficient numbers during this recession. Smaller companies (up to Woolworth's 10,000 employee size) have gone to the wall without the government batting an eyelid, and many more will do so before a turnaround comes.
"I do not want to belittle, in any way, the real problems for a company like Jaguar Land Rover," said Liberal Democrat leader Nick Clegg, before pointing out that any direct assistance would be setting the precedent, in terms of government policy, that says 'this company deserves some money; that one doesn't'. (BTW I'm not supporting his, or any political party.)

I fully realise that unless some miracle occurs in the next year to 18 months, unemployment will reach levels unseen since before WW2 - and although people today have benefits they can apply for, how much is it going to cost to pay them all?
A handout for Jaguar - or any company - merely moves the day of reckoning for them. Any business, to survive, need to make profit to pay its workforce and suppliers. To make profit, they need customers. To be customers, people need jobs.
It is the whole country's commerce that needs saving, not just individual companies. It cannot be done one at a time, a bit here and a bit there.
 
I think another point to ponder here is just how many people the UK (and other) automotive industries employ compared with, say, 30 years ago. When I first got involved, a tour of any car plant would reveal just how many pairs of hands were required to get a car built. These days, much of the build is robotic (just like those ads where the robots suddenly get a mind of their own and start painting cars psychedelically...). The closure of Longbridge was a huge blow to the local community, but even 20 years ago it would have been far more massive. In the USA, entire communities are (or were) dependent upon a particular industry, far more so than in Europe, and it's a matter for serious debate for the US Government to prop up their car makers. When I lived in the USA a very large steelworks in Pennsylvania closed down, and the effect locally was little short of disastrous, so huge was that company as an employer. I visit companies like Toyota and Nissan, and believe me, to walk along their production-lines you'd think they were on holiday, so few people are actually visible amongst the robotics and the computers.

What worries me just now is that it isn't only manufacturing that's losing jobs - it's the retail sector too. Traditionally, downturns affected basic manufacture and industries such as mining and ship-building - not any more, it would seem. Let's hope that a few top bankers get chucked out, too.

Like her or loathe her, Thatcher did come out with one inarguable altruism - YOU CAN'T BUCK THE MARKET!

Big Gee
 
We cant even support ourselves by buying British any longer because Britain is not a manufacturing country any longer. I well remember the balance of payments and the buy British campaigns.
 
Stitcher said:
We cant even support ourselves by buying British any longer because Britain is not a manufacturing country any longer. I well remember the balance of payments and the buy British campaigns.
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Hi Stitcher,

Actually, Britain is still a manufacturing country, but not a great deal of our volume manufacture (including the car industry) is British-owned any more. We actually build more cars than Italy (but less than France and Germany and Spain). In my experience, UK investors want to see a very, very quick return on their investments, and if they don't see it, they sell.
Nissan UK has apparently never made a profit, but the Japanese owners see the plant as a long-term investment.

I just spent a few minutes reckoning on how many of my company's Top Ten customers are British-owned, and I came up with one. Not to say that there aren't plenty of factories in Britain churning out consumer goods, just that very few of them post their annual returns in Britain. It's good for us that no UK-based car manufacturer is actually quoted on the FTSE 100! And a pity for us that most world banks are....

Big Gee
 
I do understand all that Big Gee and that is what I meant. We might make things but the profits all go somewhwere else. When things get difficult in the building game I am told that the large contractors use sub contractors who do a lot of work providing their own materials and labour then the contractor withholds payment. In the trade I am told it is known as Subby busting.
 
Big Gee said:
UK investors want to see a very, very quick return on their investments, and if they don't see it, they sell.
Nissan UK has apparently never made a profit, but the Japanese owners see the plant as a long-term investment.


Big Gee
Click to expand...
This was always so sadly - in the 1970's I recall reading an article where French and German investors found it hard to understand the notion in the UK that investments had to return a profit in what they saw as very short term [5 (to 10 if lucky) years] whereas over there it was 10-20 years.
 
What is refreshing about this thread is everyone is able to see the problems not only affecting Land Rover/ Jaguar but also the dangers of the tax payer yet again being milked for millions by the motor industry bosses. There does not appear to be that blind support for industries with a questionable future . To many times the aid has only postponed the inevitable or has been siphoned off by the parent company.
Multi National companies have no loyalty to their workforce or countries in which they produce,only to the bottom line. Redundant workers are merely a minor irritation to them.
As to the investment side of it, for some time unless a company has reached its forecast profit then it was considered to have made a loss. Banks are the worst for this. This normally resulted in redundancies to balance the books written by financial analysts.In another industry these people would be known as Racing Form Tipsters or Fortune Tellers. A parasitic life form living off the industry concerned but not contributing to it, in other words another drain on its finances.Both Business and Government seem to be over run with consultants. Birmingham and cities like it were built on industries founded and lead by strong minded industrialist who had faith in there own abilities and judgements. That is hardly the case now.
I am sorry this went on a bit but I feel better now . If you have reached this far thanks for reading it.
 
A very good article Rupert. Our problem in England is that so many people just do not care. They really believe it is someone elses job/responsibility to elect a good government or sort out todays problems. People do not understand that they themselves should take notice and understand the system by which the country is run. Only then can we hope to get a decent caring government.
Forgive me for ranting. I have finished now.
 
Sticher, I wanted to get this in because there is not alot of history in this thread and the Mods may want to close it down. I like your rants so dont say sorry. After I hit the send button I remember all the other things I wanted to say.
 
Thanks for that Arkrite, but have to say I do understand the moderators and I agree that this sort of discussion is not to everyones tatse,
 
I think this thread should live on at the end of the day the name is about all we know and love i,m proud to say my car is made in England, expensive to run but made in solihull, regards dereklcg
 
I am thinking that unless TATA get money from the Government they will be happy to close the plant and ship the assembly line to a country with a cheap labour force. In fact that would probably be preferable to TATA. Sadly I am not rich enough to buy and run a Jaguar. I would like one because it could be the last of the "real" Jaguars built in Britain.
 
I thought that the latter production was largly influenced by Ford who owned the company. Like the previous poster I can't afford to partake of the product either but I suppose that is not the point. It's all about profit and wether it will be there to repay the taxpayer. Were there any profits before the banking crisis? Are there likely to be profits in the future considering the overheads?
Canada is having the same debate now with it's auto manufacturers. Temporary difficulty is one thing but throwing money at a failed industry is quite another prospect. It will not make things good again if the problem is long standing.
Hopefully the answers to the two posed questions is yes and yes and Jaguar/Land Rover will continue.
 
Sadly the Jaguar side of the partnership has lost money for years which, it is alleged by people I know who work their, is one reason Ford intermingled the two companies financial organisation and stopped putting out separate profit reports a few years back.
 
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