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Coal Gas Bus, Birmingham 1933.

Thylacine

Thylacine

master brummie
I recently came across this picture and would like to know more about the bus, if anyone can help. The picture is captioned:
The Duke of York Being Shown a Gas-Driven Bus at Castle Bromwich.​
The accompanying text reads:
On the previous day [20 February 1933] the Duke of York [later King George VI] had visited the Birmingham section of the British Industries Fair at Castle Bromwich, where the heavy industries are represented. One of his most interesting experiences was to ride in the first passenger-carrying motor-omnibus in this country to be run on compressed coal gas.​
[Source: The Illustrated London News (25 February 1933) page 271.]
 
I know nothing about buses and trams other than there were times I was very grateful of either means of transport. But is this the sort of thing being discussed?

Phil

FinchleyRdTerminus.jpg
 
Thanks, gentlemen! :thumbsup:
Aidan, thanks but of all those British Industries Fair movies, there doesn't appear to be one on the 1933 Castle Bromwich exhibition.

Mike, thanks for that. We're getting a bit closer: Wellington (NZ) Evening Post (20 November 1937) snippet attached below. But it's a 1933 bus powered by compressed coal gas that we're after.

Phil, thanks for that excellent picture. But that's a bus powered by producer gas (generated from coke in the trailer), dating from World War 2.​
The 1933 compressed gas bus is a new one to me. There must be more information out there somwhere!
 
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The NZ newspapers come up trumps again, with reports on the 1933 British Industries Fair (Wellington Evening Post 23 January and 8 March 1933). In the middle is a 1933 BIF "poster stamp".
 
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That's a good one, Dek. Thanks for posting it. I'm pretty sure it's a rare World War 2 example of a bus powered by (uncompressed) town gas (coal gas), supplied from a roof-top "gas bag". The operator is Barton Transport Ltd (Nottinghamshire), who were the pioneers of this technology in World War 1 (when the roof-top gas bag was much more common).
 
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At the first World Petroleum Congress (London 18-24 July 1933), C M Walter delivered a paper entitled "The Development of the Use of Gas as a Substitute for Petrol for the Propulsion of Heavy Vehicles". This paper is available for download via OnePetro for US$10 (way too expensive, which is why it's only been downloaded four times since 2007!). The free preview gives us some useful information on the compressed gas bus (my bold emphasis):
The use of town's gas as a fuel for high-speed internal combustion engines dates back to pre-War [World War 1] days, when, as at present, large quantities of town's gas were used for the "running in" of high-speed engines primarily designed for running on petrol. In those days, the compression pressures used in engines of this type were comparatively low, with the result that when running on town's gas, the maximum power developed did not reach that obtained with petrol. During the period of the War [World War 1], many types of vehicles were run on gas, owing to the shortage of petrol, the gas being stored in the majority of cases in large flexible bags, usually housed on the roof of the vehicle, and where the compression ratios of the engines were reasonably high, the thermal efficiencies realised were of a high order. The main difficulty which presented itself, however, was the somewhat limited capacity of fuel storage, which resulted in the radius of action of the vehicle being somewhat restricted. At that time, the possibility of storing gas in the compressed form in steel cylinders was given serious consideration, but it was found that this scheme was impracticable owing to the weight of the containers being too great in comparison with the amount of gas stored. Since 1927, however, a considerable amount of research work has been done in connection with the manufacture and use of high-tensile alloy steel bottles, made from nickel, nickel-chrome or nickel-chrome-molybdenum steels, and in view of the possibility of steel bottles of this type overcoming to a considerable extent the difficulties of storage referred to, and thus enabling a vehicle to cover a reasonable distance on a single charge, the Birmingham Gas Committee decided to fully investigate the matter. Since December, 1931, very complete investigations have been made in connection with the use of bottles of this type for the storage of gas on vehicles, and further, a good deal of experimental work has been done on the running of engines on gas in place of petrol, with a view to determining to what extent the designs might have to be modified to obtain the most efficient results. The investigations referred to above, which were carried out in the Industrial Research Laboratories of the City of Birmingham Gas Department, culminated in two vehicles being placed on the road, operating on gas. One is a 20 hp Austin delivery van, which has now been operating since October [1932] entirely on gas as a fuel, giving extremely satisfactory results. The other is the 32-seater 'bus which has been running on ordinary service work in Birmingham since February last [1933].​
 
Bill Riley's fascinating Pitwork website supplies this detailed account of a compressed coal gas powered lorry operated by Henry Briggs, Son & Co Ltd to transport coal from their Whitwood Colliery (Normanton, Yorkshire). The original source is not specified, but it appears to date from the early 1930s, and mentions C M Walter (see post #9):
... This leads us to another interesting activity of Henry Briggs, Son & Co Ltd, and concerns the use of town's gas in a new lorry that they have added to their fleet of road vehicles for distributing their landsale coal.

Gas-driven lorry.

Although pioneers were not wanting to point out the advantages of using town's gas for motor transport before the war, it was a war-time expedient that gas for this purpose received anything like adequate recognition. The return of cheap petrol, however, discouraged further developments, as the bag containers which were used to store the gas on the vehicle afforded a very limited radius of travel. Fortunately the advantages offered by this fuel induced a number of workers — prominent among whom was Dr C M Walter, of the City of Birmingham Gas Department — to continue with experiments to place its use on a more practical basis. Assistance came in the shape of alloy-steel bottles capable of safely withstanding internal working pressures of 3,000 lb per sq in. Although not heavy in relation to their capacity the weight of these vessels is still sufficient to preclude the use of gas propulsion to other than the heavier type of vehicle. A view of the new lorry is produced in fig 13; it was manufactured by Leyland Motors Limited to the specified requirements of the colliery. The chassis is of the 6-ton "Beaver" type (unladen weight 5 tons 10 cwt) and differs little from the standard petrol-driven design apart from the gas equipment. The pistons have, however, been modified to give a slightly higher compression ratio than is customary with an engine of this type run on petrol fuel. The engine has six 4½ in dia by 5½ in stroke cylinders and is coupled to the four-speed gear-box through a 16½ in single dry-plate clutch. In top gear the ratio is 7.33 to 1, a speed of 30 mph being achieved at 2,000 rpm. First speed has a gear ratio of 35 to 1 and reverse 40.8 to 1.

The gas equipment consists of 4 alloy-steel containers, a double reducing valve, a mixing valve, and the necessary high-pressure piping. Apart from the reducing valve, which is of Belliss manufacture, this equipment was supplied by the Chesterfield Tube Company. The cylinders are about 8 in outside diameter, 73 in long and have a wall thickness of 0.22 in, the weight when empty being 119 lb. As the internal volume is 1.76 cu ft and the working pressure 3,000 lb per sq in, the volume of free gas contained is 352 cu ft. After being fed through the master stop valve the gas is passed to the double reducing valve at the rear of the cab, where it is reduced to sub-atmospheric pressure. It is then led to the mixing valve, the proportion of gas to air being controlled by a diaphragm. In this the gas is taken to the periphery in order to avoid stratification and so ensure correct distribution. Control is effected by the ordinary acceleration pedal which is coupled to the gas throttle. A pressure gauge is fitted in the driver's cab to give warning when the gas is running low. In order that the lorry can, in case of emergency, be operated on petrol, a fuel tank is mounted at the rear end of the cab, the change-over being effected by a Bowden control. This operates a sliding dog which, in turn, connects the foot accelerator with either the gas or petrol throttle.

A view of the charging station is given in fig 14. The plant here is essentially of an experimental nature and has been so erected that it can easily be modified. It consists of a Peter Brotherhood 4-stage submarine-type compressor capable of confining 6,000 cu ft of free gas per hour against a pressure of 3,000 lb per sq in, and three containers* each of 5 cu ft capacity, so that each is able to store 1,000 cu ft of free gas. The compressor is rope driven by a 35 hp motor, and the length of time taken to fill the lorry is about 3 minutes.

As yet the lorry has not been running for a sufficiently long period for exact costs to be established, but we were informed that when costing the gas at 2s 2d per 1,000 cu ft compressed, it would be safe to say that the cost of operating on coal gas is equivalent to using petrol at 8d per gallon. It is proposed to use the lorry over an area of 20 miles radius, this including Bradford, Leeds, Wakefield, and Pontefract. Actually the lorry is able to accomplish a journey of about 50 miles per charge of gas.

*Since our last visit the three vessels have been replaced by a single large container capable of storing 3,000 cu ft of gas.​
 
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Here is another snippet which adds a little more information on the 1933 Birmingham compressed coal gas bus:
For example, the industrial research laboratories of the Birmingham Corporation Gas Department have been at work on problems connected with the use of compressed coal gas as motor fuel. One of the principal difficulties has been overcome through the manufacture of special alloy steel cylinders. A small high-pressure gas compressor for filling the bottles has been invented by Belliss and Morcom, Limited, of Birmingham, who have also developed special control and reducing valves for breaking down the compressed gas to slightly below atmospheric pressure before it is admitted from the storage bottles to the engine. Any engine now run on petrol can be adapted to use compressed coal gas by substituting for the carburettor a special type of air-gas mixer designed by officials of the Birmingham Corporation Gas Department in conjunction with Amal, Limited, of Birmingham. The demonstration of the success with which the various difficulties formerly encountered have been overcome is attracting much attention. The first omnibus using coal gas as its fuel which has been licensed to carry passengers runs outside the Fair and adds to the interest in this work.​
[From an article on the 1933 British Industries Fair in the Sydney Morning Herald of 5 April 1933, accessed via the National Library of Australia "Australian Newspapers" website.]
 
* The Times, Friday, Jun 03, 1932 pg11 Issue 46150.png - Coal as fuel for transport
* The Times, Wednesday, Nov 16, 1932 pg19 Issue 46292.png - Coal gas experiments at Birmingham
* The Times, Tuesday, Feb 21, 1933 pg14 Issue 46374.png - The first Coal Gas fired Omnibus Birmingham, Forward the Motto
* The Times 1933 (oops) - Industries fair between Olympia & Castle Brom
* The Times, Tuesday, Feb 21, 1933 pg16 Issue 46374; picture.png - Gas-Omnibus at Castle Brom - New Picture!
 
Oh, how have I missed this thread? And a picture of a Birmingham bus I hadn't seen before?

The bus being regally inspected is one of thirty rather elegant Guy 'Conquest' 25 seat single deckers supplied to Birmingham Corporation Tramway & Omnibus Dept in 1929 (51-60, OF 3960-9) and 1930 (61-80, OF 6071-90) for use on lightly trafficked routes where the driver could also act as conductor and collect the fares as passengers boarded. They were initially used to replace the uneconomic Bolton Road tram service (on 4th May 1930).

The 1931 traffic act restricted the use of one-man buses, and these Guys were then unsuitable - and rather wasteful, being of full size for the small number of passengers they carried. In 1931 they were all returned to Guy Motors in Wolverhampton, and rebuilt as normal half-cab saloons seating 32, sadly spoiling the elegant look.

It is one of these that was used in conjunction with the Gas department's experiments, No 60 (OF 3969), the highly compressed gas being stored in cylinders under the rear of the bus at a considerable 3000 lb/psi. The experiment could not have held the promise it offered, whereby the city produced its own bus fuel, and 60 was converted back to petrol.

As with most single deckers in the Birmingham fleet, these Guys were not overworked, the introduction of ten Morris-Commercial 'Dictator' 34 seaters in 1931 followed by another four in 1933, and 35 diesel Daimler COG5s in 1935 and another ten in 1936 left the Guys as reserve vehicles for most of their lives.

No 57 when new, and no 60 as rebuilt and "Running on Town Gas".
 
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There being "Nothing new under the sun", below is one of a small fleet of Travel West Midlands Volvo B10Ls built to run on compressed gas, Hydrogen in this case. Once the government funding for this 'green fuel' experiment had run out, they were converted to normal diesel power.
1504 running: 1509 broken down. Note mechanic on roof where the tanks are.
(All I could think of when first seeing these buses was the R101 and the Hindenburg. Walsall had the best 'green fuel' transport until the WMPTE took over - trolleybuses.)
 
Another mystery completely cleared up! Thanks everyone. I'm attaching a magnification of the picture (discovered by Aidan) of the Duke of York inspecting the BCT Guy "Conquest" gas bus (The Times 21 February 1933).

This has been a very revealing thread: this was the prototype compressed gas bus, a technology which has only come to fruition in recent decades (compressed natural gas appears to be the fuel of choice nowadays). It has been fascinating to learn about Birmingham's pioneering role. :cool:
 
Lloyd thanks for reminding me of the Walsall trolley buses i,d forgotten about them. I went to Sheffield not so long back struck me as a very cold city but they still had their trolley bus system don,t know if its still running. Dek
 
Thanks, Lloyd, for the information on and pictures of the compressed hydrogen buses operated by TWM. Like yourself, I would be a little wary of these highly compressed, highly inflammable fuels. Are there any compressed gas buses running in the Midlands now?
 
I don't think there are any gas buses locally now, but I don't really keep up with the modern scene so I could be wrong.
One point to note in the two pictures of HRH inspecting the bus is that you can see the photographer of the 'other' picture in each one!

Trolleybuses in Sheffield, Dek? I can only assume you mean the Supertram, a ground level rail system that keeps areas of streets exclusively for its own use, unlike the British systems up to the 1950s or todays Croydon network that shares with other road users.
 
Good heavens, just as I feared - but did the gas ignite? it doesn't appear so in that film.

From the Telegraph:
A bus has exploded in the South Korean capital, Seoul, with police and fire officials blaming intense heat and a leak in one of the on-board gas tanks.

The bus, running on compressed natural gas (CNG), exploded into flames at around 4.55pm on Monday near Haengdang Station in Soengdong district, eastern Seoul, causing injuries to 18 passengers and pedestrians.

Police and fire officials suspected that the explosion was due to a gas leak from one of the seven gas tanks on-board which was ignited by particularly hot weather. One female passenger, 27, who was sitting directly above the gas tank lost both her feet in the incident.

Speaking to the South Korean newspaper Joong Ang Daily, one eyewitness said: "I heard an explosive blast and saw smoke shooting from the bus.
"I saw a woman with a serious injury to her ankle and the driver, who was covered in debris and walked out of the bus."
Fifteen fire trucks and more than 70 policemen rushed to the scene and transported the injured to Hanyang University medical Centre, Soonchunhyang University Hospital and Seoul Micro Hospital.
About 95 per cent of public transit buses use CNG as fuel, which entered the transport system in the South Korean capital in 2000. Although local officials pledged to make immediate safety checks on all gas-powered buses, there was increasing concern following the incident about the safety of the vehicles.
Anxiety turned to anger towards the government after the Ministry of Knowledge Economy admitted that it had found a number of defects in several buses during safety inspections made earlier this year. A total of 201 CNG buses out of the 4,300 that were tested had faults in their fuel tanks, 134 of which were deemed dangerous enough to cause an explosion.
This was the eighth time that a CNG bus has exploded in Seoul since 2005, no deaths have occurred as a result of the incidents.


(EIGHTH TIME ?????)



More articles on this from a local paper, the Joong Ang Daily here.
 
It doesn't appear to have gone up in flames, looking at the video. There are other (still) pictures of the bus being inspected afterwards, and though the interior (see below) is an absolute mess, no fire damage is apparent. So I don't think the gas ignited. The injuries (some quite severe) seem to have been caused by shrapnel.
 
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[Just for the record, I have transcribed some of the contemporary newspaper reports discovered by Aidan.]

The Times (3 June 1932).

Fuel for Transport. Predicted Rehabilitation of Coal.
From Our Special Correspondent. Buxton, June 2.

At the resumed Congress of the Institute of Transport here to-day a paper on "Fuel Research in Relation to Transport" was read by Professor R V Wheeler, the Professor of Fuel Technology in the University of Sheffield. The paper was in the main a rehabilitation of coal as the transport fuel of the immediate future, though full justice was done to the advantage of oil in particular cases. He acknowledged that in ocean-going ships where space is valuable coal required two-thirds more space than oil to render the same service as a boiler fuel, and the oil can be carried in what would otherwise be ballast tanks. Moreover, oil supplies abroad are relatively cheaper than coaling. But for the European coastwise trade coal could be bought cheaply, and the shorter voyages do not make space a major consideration. For such traffic coal will probably continue to be the principal fuel.

Steady progress was being made in the application of pulverized coal firing (the most efficient method of using coal for power production) to the marine boiler. As to railway propulsion, he thought electric traction would be delayed by the high capital cost involved. Experiments in this country to adapt pulverized fuel firing for locomotives did not appear to have made much progress, but in Germany and the USA the experimental stage had been passed, and the Stug locomotive had a fuel efficiency of 80 per cent, using coal or semi-coke in powdered form. He thought the steam locomotive might yet withstand successfully the competition of other forms of traction.

In road transport the petrol engine at present stood supreme, but the Diesel engine had challenged the petrol engine for application to heavy road transport (goods and motor-omnibuses), and its success was great enough to overcome the greater weight per horse power developed in this class of vehicle. The latest competitor for road transport service, however, was the coal-gas engine, using coal gas at 200 atmospheres pressure (about 3,000 lb per square inch) in steel cylinders of moderate size. Paris experience had induced the Birmingham Corporation Gas Department to experiment with "gas-cars", and tests with passenger vehicles would be made as soon as Home Office sanction was given.

Professor Wheeler said he was convinced that in this country coal must remain the primary source of heat, light, and power. It was the heavy cost of rail transport of coal that had inevitably extended the use of alternative fuels, and the demand for raw coal had also been reduced by the progressive improvement in the efficiency with which coal was used, but he thought further developments in the use of coal in powdered form would dispose of all suggestions that coal should be superseded. He thought there was a future for low-temperature carbonization of coal.
 
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The Times (16 November 1932).

Gas Fuel for Petrol. Experiments at Birmingham.
From Our Correspondent. Birmingham, Nov 15.

Considerable progress has been made in several centres with experiments in the use of the town's gas in high-speed internal combustion engines.

During a demonstration by the Birmingham Corporation Gas Department yesterday it was stated that both as regards power and acceleration the results that have been obtained are superior to those of the petrol engine. Perfect combustion was secured and the operation of the air and gas mixer ensured that no detonation occurred, even with high compression ratios.

For three weeks tests have been made on a 20 hp Austin engine equipped with the necessary apparatus for utilizing gas fuel instead of petrol. Previously numerous tests had been made on standard engines.

During a town and country run a maximum speed of 55 miles an hour was attained. The gas consumption was about 21 cubic feet a mile as against 12 miles a gallon expected in a petrol-driven engine under similar conditions. Thus on this vehicle one gallon of petrol was equivalent to 250 cubic feet of gas.

It is estimated that with the therm at 6d the cost of running and recharging a fleet of 60 omnibuses on a circuit of 10 miles would be equivalent to 9½d a gallon for petrol. This includes compressor plant.

At present possibilities are limited to heavy vehicles; moreover, gas cylinder fitting presents a problem which designers will have to meet. Any development of gas fuel for transport generally would also require a chain of compressing stations.

Newcastle-on-Tyne and London are carrying out similar experiments by the permission and with the encouragement of the Government.
 
[This report, though rather long, provides an example of the upbeat reporting of the 1933 British Industries Fair, at a time when Britain was in the depths of the Great Depression, with a national unemployment rate of over 20% (and up to 70% in some industrial towns).]

The Times (21 February 1933).

Industries Fair Opened. The Duke of York at Birmingham. "Forward" the Motto.
From our Correspondent. Birmingham, Feb 20.

For the first time in its history the Birmingham section of the British Industries Fair opened to-day under Royal auspices, the Duke of York having travelled from Euston to Castle Bromwich by the special exhibitors' train in the morning in order to have time to make a tour of the exhibition before declaring it open at the inaugural luncheon. During the hour or more at his disposal the Duke showed his interest in many typical products and processes of the trades represented, and he declared later in his speech that he had seen enough to convince him that, in spite of present difficulties, British industry is marching steadily forward.

Perhaps the most significant development to which his attention was directed was the first passenger-carrying motor-omnibus in this country to be run on compressed coal gas. Dr C M Walter, chief of the industrial research laboratories of Birmingham Corporation Gas Department, to whose work the practicability of using compressed town's gas as a motor fuel is largely due, explained that seven containers were each charged with 350 cubic feet of gas at a pressure of 3,000 lb per square inch. This gave the vehicle a travelling range of 65 miles on one charge. "I think it will probably revolutionize transport", was the Duke's comment on the innovation. He then entered the omnibus, in which he made a short trip in the Fair grounds.

Applications of electricity to operations in farm and garden attracted his notice, and in particular the world's largest single-unit incubator, which is capable of hatching out nearly 20,000 chickens weekly. In another department he watched metal spraying, and also saw a collective exhibit of plant illustrating the latest applications of oil firing to metallurgical and other industrial processes.

Steady Progress.

At the luncheon the Lord Mayor of Birmingham (Mr H E Goodby) welcomed the Duke and said that the Birmingham section had set up another record in respect of the number of exhibitors and was more comprehensive in scope and character than ever before.

The Duke of York then declared the Fair open and proposed the toast of the Fair. In his speech he said: —
"For 14 years, in spite of all difficulties, the Birmingham section of the British Industries Fair has made steady progress. The reasons for this growth are not far to seek. The manufacturers of the country have proved that by exhibiting here good business results are to be secured. Year by year more buyers visit this great display either to place their orders on the sport or to make those preliminary arrangements necessary for the final placing of the order.

"If such were not the case, how can one explain the astonishing demand for space here at Castle Bromwich? I understand that, in spite of the extensions made last year and in previous years, in spite of the vastness of the buildings through which we have passed, so great has been the demand for exhibition space that exhibitors have been requested to, so to speak, ration themselves. I congratulate all those who have unselfishly given up part of the space to which they were entitled in order to accommodate later applicants. This sharing of accommodation at a time of record demand is entirely in keeping with the splendid spirit of co-operation which is becoming more and more characteristic of the British Industries Fair as a whole.

"But the Fair is far from being a mere collection of individual firms. Bound up in its success are the efforts of, first and foremost, the Chamber of Commerce and Municipality of Birmingham, numerous trade associations, together with HM Government, represented by the Department of Overseas Trade, through which the contact lines of the Fair are spread throughout the world. The high prestige which the Fair undoubtedly enjoys to-day is largely due to this atmosphere of sustained co-operative effort. For, especially in the eyes of overseas buyers, the Fair represents not one industry, nor one group of industries, nor mere groupings of industries: it represents the industrial resources and activities of the nation.

"I have seen enough of the Fair to-day to be satisfied that British industry is, in spite of all current difficulties, marching steadily ahead. Its motto, in fact, like that of Birmingham itself, is 'Forward'.

Better Salesmanship.

"There is in these buildings, on all sides, evidence of progress, of technical processes improved, of keen prices, of new and better products developed, and of careful study of the requirements of the consumers of this and other countries. In this connexion I am very pleased to learn of the steps that have been taken to encourage the right sort of salesmanship, which is of such vital importance to the nation to-day. I have, myself, been reading the interesting manual produced by the Sales Managers' Association and I commend its perusal to every exhibitor.

"Outside the buildings also is the magnificent Quarry-to-Road exhibit, on the importance of which I need hardly enlarge. The road improvement and maintenance problem is one which exercises some of the best engineering brains of the country. These efforts will, I am confident, go far toward the solution of the problem.

"It is a rather remarkable fact that a period of unexampled world depression has caused something like a new industrial revolution in this country. I make bold to say that never in its history has British industry been more vital, more resourceful, or more adaptable than it is to-day; rarely also has it been in a position to offer greater value for money than is obtainable at this year's British Industries Fair."​
The Duke, continuing, said that he heard that the record size of the Fair promised to be matched by a record attendance of buyers from oversea. From what he had seen, he knew that in a business sense their visit to Castle Bromwich would be amply rewarded. He hoped also that the home buyer would benefit by the opportunity presented to him. The Duke added: —
"I shall leave Castle Bromwich feeling definitely encouraged by all I have seen. Here is concrete evidence of the vitality of those forces which are not only essential to recovery, but are the foundation of its achievement."​
Mr Peter F Bennett, president of the Birmingham Chamber of Commerce, in reply, said that the Fair was full to overflowing, and the management was faced with the problem of extensions. The Birmingham City Council, by acquiring the site, was able to give them the security of tenure which would make it possible to proceed confidently with developments. The Fair would be judged by its ability to produce more business and promote employment.

The Duke, he added, had referred to the progress being made, and had informed him that in doing a little furnishing on his own account he had been able to satisfy all his wants from home sources.
 
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Thanks for the great article. It helped me to identify a photo of the duke and my great
grandmas brother cyril with their hands in their pockets looking at the Quarry to Road Exhibit1BIF Birmingham 1935+ Cyril, Duke of York, Lord mayor.jpg
It looks like one of those machines that the gravel or hardcore is going to go up.
I had another one also with them in an exhibition hall. Im not sure what they are looking at1BIF Birmingham c.1934 Cyril, Duke of York.jpg
Thanks Ben
 
Here's a couple of the pictures which disappeared:
 

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Hi Lloyd Thanks very much he's wearing the same coat and hat. So its on the same day and i think my Cyril Elliott (1888 - 1947) great grand uncle.
Is the chap standing behind the duke of york. he must have been something to do with the exhibition or his bouncer. I will keep digging thanks again ben
 
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