I would like any information on him please. He was a gold engraver as far as I am aware. I think he may have gone to America sometime after 1882. I would also like information about his wife Eliza. I think they married in 1881? Eliza's maiden name was Winkles. I think she may have died young in 1881/1882. They lived in Aston area. Any information about Charles Kirby or Eliza Kirby (Winkles) would be gratefully received!
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Charles Frederick Kirby born 1854
- Thread starter Lasulk
- Start date
Charles Frederick Kirby born 1854 and his wife Eliza b 1860 m West Bromwich 1881, were in Graham street in 1881 , he was a Gold engraver.
In Oct/Nov/Dec qtr 1881 they had a daughter Marion Eugenie she was baptised 2nd November 1882 Tamworth.
Marion Eugenie Kirby married Frederick johnson in 1902 in Shardlow Derbyshire.
in 1911 Marion is in Bacchus road Handsworth with son Leslie age 7 and daughter Dorothy age 2 whilst Frederick is working away ,boarding in Shardlow.
There is a death in 1885 for Eliza Kirby, says the age is 21, a bit 'out' might be worth getting the death certificate
In Oct/Nov/Dec qtr 1881 they had a daughter Marion Eugenie she was baptised 2nd November 1882 Tamworth.
Marion Eugenie Kirby married Frederick johnson in 1902 in Shardlow Derbyshire.
in 1911 Marion is in Bacchus road Handsworth with son Leslie age 7 and daughter Dorothy age 2 whilst Frederick is working away ,boarding in Shardlow.
There is a death in 1885 for Eliza Kirby, says the age is 21, a bit 'out' might be worth getting the death certificate
Many thanks Alberta- I think I will have to try to get death certificate for Eliza. The dates are a bit out definitely. Whatever she would have been very young with a small child too. Marion is my great grandmother. She was a very old lady when I knew her and she did not speak much of her family unfortunately. She separated from Frederick after my Grandad was born sometime after 1914. He was always working away and did not settle anywhere(that is what I have been told anyway) Marion settled in Clifton terrace in Sellyoak. I remember visiting there when I was tiny. It backed onto the canal and had communal toilets and a wash house. Marion lived with her grandmother and grandfather who kept the Juction Inn pub on Wheeler st. After the death of her mother she appears to live with her grandparents(Wallace and Eliza Winkles) her father, Charles seems to have moved away finally going to America. Thank you for the information you have given. Will have to research a bit more to fill in the gaps x
MWS
from Bham
There is an Eliza Kirby b1864, living with parents in New John St in 1881 so the 1885 death could be hers.
Was Charles Frederick Kirby certainly born in B'ham as is listed on the 1881 census because I came across a marriage in New York but I think he was born in Leeds.
Also found some US records that might be Eliza's brother Wallace Frederick.
Was Charles Frederick Kirby certainly born in B'ham as is listed on the 1881 census because I came across a marriage in New York but I think he was born in Leeds.
Also found some US records that might be Eliza's brother Wallace Frederick.
A mystery for the sleuths on here.
Charles Kirby born 1854 living with Sampson Kirby age 38 and his wife Caroline age 26 in 1871, Charles is 17 and a gold engraver.
Ancestry says adopted son and on the origianl copy there was an entry which was crossed out and son placed over.
Charles is obviously not the son of Caroline and is on the 1861 census as the son of Sampson and his wife Ann.
Now the mystery, there is no marriage recorded of Sampson Kirby and Ann but Sampson married Caroline Amelia Cotterell in 1865.
There is a birth of a Charles Frederick Cotterell in Dec 1853 Birmingham, was he the son Ann who was with Sampson and then did Sampson marry a relative of Ann.
There is a death of a Ann Cotterell in 1863
????? Alberta.
Charles Kirby born 1854 living with Sampson Kirby age 38 and his wife Caroline age 26 in 1871, Charles is 17 and a gold engraver.
Ancestry says adopted son and on the origianl copy there was an entry which was crossed out and son placed over.
Charles is obviously not the son of Caroline and is on the 1861 census as the son of Sampson and his wife Ann.
Now the mystery, there is no marriage recorded of Sampson Kirby and Ann but Sampson married Caroline Amelia Cotterell in 1865.
There is a birth of a Charles Frederick Cotterell in Dec 1853 Birmingham, was he the son Ann who was with Sampson and then did Sampson marry a relative of Ann.
There is a death of a Ann Cotterell in 1863
????? Alberta.
MWS
from Bham
That seems to scotch my connection to the Leeds Charles Kirby.
In the 1881 census Charles' 2 youngest (step/half) brothers are listed as living with there grandmother Caroline Jones which suggests that Sampson married Caroline Jones (daughter of John & Caroline) in 1865 and not Caroline Amelia Cotterell.
In the 1881 census Charles' 2 youngest (step/half) brothers are listed as living with there grandmother Caroline Jones which suggests that Sampson married Caroline Jones (daughter of John & Caroline) in 1865 and not Caroline Amelia Cotterell.
MWS
from Bham
There is also a death listed on freeBMD for an Ann Kirby Jun 1864, B'ham. Before ages were recorded though unfortunately.
Can't find anything else.
Best bet would probably be to get the birth certificate of their daughter Elizabeth, most likely to be Sampson's child, and see what the mother's maiden name is.
Can't find anything else.
Best bet would probably be to get the birth certificate of their daughter Elizabeth, most likely to be Sampson's child, and see what the mother's maiden name is.
Hi - thank you Alberta and MWS- it seems I need to do a bit more research!!! I have applied for Eliza's death certificate and it looks like I need to apply for Sampson's daughter, Elizabeth's birth certificate too. Am I right in thinking most adoptions at this time would be informal? If anyone had any other suggestions about how best to unpick this their advice would be appreciated. Again, thank you very much for your efforts so far, it had given me a lot to think about. Will keep you posted x
pjmburns
master brummie
There is a baptism of Charles Frederick Cotterill born 18 November 1853 and baptised 29 January 1854, son of Emily and Henry of Grant Street. Unfortunately there is also a death 26 May 1854 although this time is gives the parents as Emilia and Edward but the address is Grant Street.
I am not sure where this leaves us!
Janice
I am not sure where this leaves us!
Janice
Sampson Kirby married Ann Peters 16/9/1851 at St Peter St Paul the marriage was witnessed by Henry and Julia Jones. Grooms father John Kirby. Brides father John Peters. Ann Peters 1836-1864 so the Charles on the 1871 census is most like the son of Sampson and Ann Kirby.
Thanks very much for this. I think this makes the most sense. I know it's a few years after my first enquiry but your look up and reply is much appreciated.