• Welcome to this forum . We are a worldwide group with a common interest in Birmingham and its history. While here, please follow a few simple rules. We ask that you respect other members, thank those who have helped you and please keep your contributions on-topic with the thread.

    We do hope you enjoy your visit. BHF Admin Team

Birmingham motor bus pioneers

Thylacine

Thylacine

master brummie
I've seen the intriguing picture of the Birmingham Motor Omnibus Co motor bus of 1897 on this forum. Apparently almost nothing is known of this intriguing vehicle (the business name was struck off the companies register on 26 Jul 1912). So I thought I'd begin a thread about other better known Birmingham motor bus pioneers. I hope members are interested. :rolleyes:

It is recorded that "local property owner W W Greener" started a regular motor bus service between Erdington Green and the steam tramway terminus at Salford Bridge on 8 August 1902. He apparently employed a 10-seat Daimler and charged 2d for a journey of a mile and a half. Was this motor bus pioneer the renowned gunsmith William Wellington Greener (1834-1921) who employed some 450 skilled craftsmen at his Birmingham works in St Marys Square? Does anyone know how long his bus service lasted and anything more about the vehicle?
 
No, don't know that one. There were a few horse hackney carriage operators around, it is likely that a few tried the new-fangled 'motors' as experiments, but it's not an area I've studied much

William Wellington Greener (gunmaker, born Newcastle, Northumberland) in the 1911 census (aged 76, with his 42 year old wife Bertha, to whom he had been married 6 years) lived at the Cedars, Grange Road Erdington, so I would think it highly likely that he was the man.
 
Thanks for the reply Lloyd. Yes he's the right name, right age and right location! And wealthy enough to be investing in the new-fangled motor buzz! But it would be nice to confirm the identity. Googling "W W Greener" just gives heaps of stuff about guns which I'm not really interested in unless this particular gunsmith ran a motor bus in his spare time!!! I've also discovered that Daimler is a brand of gun! LOL. Perhaps someone out there knows something.
 
Many thanks for that Lloyd. Very interesting, but nothing about public transport! Nice picture of WWG though.
 
Lloyd, on the off-chance I e-mailed the modern Greener gunmaking company asking about W W Greener and the Erdington motor omnibus. Director (and descendant) Graham Greener very kindly replied but was unable to help as regards the bus. He did confirm the following information:

WWG was a local land owner who lived at The Cedars (Spring Lane, Erdington) for many years.
He funded a new chapel for the Plymouth Brethren in Erdington.
He funded a breakwater at Barmouth where he had a holiday home (Ty'r Craig Castle).
He was an inventor who was interested in new things.

Sadly when the original company was sold in 1967 the factory was demolished and most records were lost.

Still the circumstantial evidence is stacking up in favour of gunmaker William Wellington Greener! It's the sort of thing he might have done as a public service to his fellow Erdingtonians (is that a word?).
 
Interesting link here gents; it goes straight to the very article I am referring to (although you will have to go manually to the correct pages therein). May find very interesting the whole website and thereby all the advert pages (I'm trying not to give any clues straight away).

https://pdfmm.free.fr/5710.pdf

Had the link passed to me via a Liverpool Local History forum

Richie.
 
Last edited:
I can't get it to load either, but open the main page https://pdfmm.free.fr/ and you will see what it is. Downloadable .pdf files of almost all of the issues of 'Meccano Magazine'.
October 1957 is the issue you want, right click on the image and clcik 'save link as'. It'll take about 5 mins to download.
 
It was over 25years ago that I stayed at Tyrgraig Castel Hotel. I remember the wood panelled entrance hall was most impressive . It did not look as smart then needing some tlc on the exterior.
 
Thanks for that tip Loyd. I'm downloading it OK but it's taking longer than 5 minutes for me. Your bandwidth must be pretty good! I suppose 12.3 Mb is a fairly big file. I used to work in the computer industry and I can remember when a 1 Mb disk drive was about as big as my fridge (and was considered to be one of the wonders of the world)!
 
Richie, that MM site is fascinating, even if each one takes 5 mins to download. I'll have some serious reading to do this year now!!
 
Thylacine, where was your original information about WW Greener from please? I'd not heard of him before, or his 'bus'.
 
What an interesting thread as you will see from the Greener's thread we took several photo's last year of Tyrgraig. Michael was the last van driver for Greener's in the 60's when they sold out to Webly Scott and wrote an article for The Brummagem Magazine.
 
Welcome Wendy and thanks for the contribution. I must look up Michael's article on the Greener firm.

Lloyd, my source is Peter Hardy's Fleet History PD2 The Birmingham and Midland Motor Omnibus Co Ltd Part 1 1904-1933 published in 1961 by the Omnibus Society and the PSV Circle. I quote:

However, no motor omnibus appears to have entered regular service in the Birmingham area until Monday 8 September 1902 when a 10-seater Daimler commenced to run between Erdington Green and Salford Bridge, the terminus of the steam tramway to Birmingham. The licence was made out to a Mr W W Greener, a local property owner, and a fare of 2d was charged for a journey of under a mile and a half in distance. It seems probable that the service only lasted a few weeks - nothing more is known of it. In any case, the route was also covered by horse omnibuses.
 
Ah yes - I've just found that in my copy. Years since I read that, no wonder I'd forgotten!
The late Peter Hardy (who I knew well) did a huge amount of research which culminated in those volumes, which although some inaccuracies have later been discovered as more data became available, are still the 'bible' as far as the written numerological history of the fleet is concerned.
 
Richie, welcome to the thread and thanks for the pointer to the Meccano Magazine site. I've downloaded the October 1957 issue successfully now (it took about 15 minutes so I was probably being too impatient before). The article on Birmingham buses looks like an excellent overview but sadly doesn't mention our man Greener's 1902 bus. It gives credit to Birmingham Motor Express for Birmingham's first motor bus in 1903 (we know a fair bit about that company which soon transformed into Midland Red).

I must confess here that I was a Meccano nerd as a boy and subscribed to MM for a while in the 1950s (all sadly lost now).

Lloyd, is it true that Birmingham Corporation Transport's Alfred Baker designed & built the first enclosed double-decker in 1923? That's an interesting side-story!
 
Yes Lloyd, vale Peter Hardy, Alec G Jenson, Wingate H Bett. All pioneers of the study of Birmingham public transport in the days when it must have been a lonely occupation. I'm sure you can add names to that illustrious list.
 
Lloyd said:
Richie, that MM site is fascinating, even if each one takes 5 mins to download. I'll have some serious reading to do this year now!!
Click to expand...

Thanks for that Lloyd. Obviously some people's network systems are different from others regardless of speed. Its the kids' adverts I'm chuffed with...I can be 10 years of age all over again! LOL
 
Richie said:
Its the kids' adverts I'm chuffed with...I can be 10 years of age all over again! LOL
Click to expand...

Yes, I looked through those - a few toys I had, and a lot I wanted but never got!
Noticed the ads for education and careers, too.
 
It doesn't look like we're going to get much further with W W Greener and his Daimler! Unless someone discovers a contemporary press report or something similar. I live in hope. Thanks to everyone for their contributions.

Lloyd, I've just received my Midland Red Volumes 1 and 2 by Gray, Keeley and Seale. You won't be hearing from me for a while - I've got some reading to do!!!
 
I think you'll be somewhat amazed by those books!

Come back when you've read them, I'll tell you some of the research recently ongoing on the startup of BMO and BMMO.
 
A sudden thought has occurred to me - Orlando Cecil Power, the Midland Red traffic manager from its earliest days of operation (he had been secretary of a horse-bus company prior to that) - his father, Samuel Richard Power, was by trade a gun engraver in the 1901 census. I wonder if he worked for Greener?
 
Lloyd those two Midland Red books are absolutely astounding! And I'm not one who uses superlatives lightly. I've only had a chance to browse through them so far but I'm impressed by the quality and quantity of the information. The text clearly owes much to Hardy and others (and due credit is given) but shows the benefit of deeper research. But the pictures!!! I'm overwhelmed by the diversity and the quality of them (especially the early ones). Thank goodness they've been saved from oblivion. And it's good to see that the books were a fundraiser for BaMMOT and the 1685 Group in the early days (BaMMOT has become one of the best transport museums in the UK if not the world - I'm unable to visit in person but I often "drop in" to their website). Thanks indeed for recommending these books. They're going to keep me busy for weeks!

That's a good thought about O C Power's father perhaps having a Greener connection. Who knows, perhaps OCP persuaded WWG to try out the new-fangled motor buzz!!! I was hoping for ideas like that. If only we could dig a bit deeper. Hmmm!

I'm also intrigued about that research you mentioned into BMMO origins. In your own good time Lloyd! Thanks again.
 
Come to think of it O C Power (1879-1943; have I got his dates right Lloyd?) was much closer in age to W W Greener's sons Harry (1863-1935) and Charles (1868-1950) who took over the gunmaking firm on WWG's retirement in 1910. So Orlando, Henry & Charles might have belonged to the same club and got to talking about the petrol engine and its potential for public transport ... and the lads persuaded their very rich dad to put up some money and try it out in Erdington. Sheer speculation, but its fun isn't it? OCP is of course the up-and-coming brash young transport manager with ideas and a vision of the future!!! On the other hand perhaps it was Greener who influenced Power. It's tantalising to ponder on a possible connection!

The modern Greener company website (https://www.wwgreener.com/history.htm) has nice pictures of five generations of Greener gunmakers from William the First (1806-1869) to Graham (born 1942) who kindly answered my e-mail the other day.

Sorry Lloyd I see you've already posted that link. It's time I went to bed. Goodnight all.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top