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BANNISTER, Mary and Martha

When I read the story on the tree I realied it made no reference to them travelling together in 1904. So I checked and in the search for Mary he simply comes up as "other person". I assumed it meant he was travelling with her but they weren't listed together.
So I'd a search for him and nothing came up for 1904 so I concluded he wasn't on the Teutonic.
Perhaps MWS can double check.
 
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I know I posted a lot this morning but did you see post 145 regarding 140 Station Road which took in boarders?
They also took in boarders on 1911 census
 
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Thanks for that, MWS. Blimey, the area seems to have been 100% redeveloped! You have to refer to the old map to obtain even the slightest idea of what life must have been like for everyone there. (The one favourable thing was that NO ONE had a lengthy commute to work!) I have yet to work out where Riddings Street was - where Martha was in service in 1891. Possibly off this part of the map. I'll delve further.

Chris

Riddings St is marked on the first map and you can see the distance to Cherry Orchard (top right)...

0 - Riddings.jpg
 
When I read the story on the tree I raised it made no reference to them travelling together in 1904. So I checked and in the search for Mary he simply comes up as "other person". I assumed it meant he was travelling with her but they weren't listed together.
So I'd a search for him and nothing came up for 1904 so I concluded he wasn't on the Teutonic.
Perhaps MWS can double check.

Sorry, just seen this.

I don't think he travelled with her. On the passenger list for the question 'Whether going to join relative or friend...' it gives Walter's name and address, and in brackets intended husband. If Walter was travelling with her then that question would have different answer.

Also Walter's name doesn't come up when searching 1904 crossings for the Teutonic
 
George and Mary must have been a couple before he emigrated and I imagine that it was always their intention for Mary to join him once he had established himself.

They must have made the arrangements by letter.

And if George was already in America, which seems likely, their hasty marriage couldn't have been due to pregnancy.
 
Ths snippet from a newspaper article confirms that Elmleigh was numbered 140

Birmingham Weekly Post - Friday 13 January 1956.jpg


I think it highy likely that this was where Charles lodged. It is the only house on the 1921 and 1911 censuses which lists "boarders"
 
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That certainly looks the most likely, Janice. And thanks. The only thing is, I can't understand in that case why he was photographed standing in the front garden of no.152, Brighton House/Villa.

What is not known is when his son/my father met the girl who has being raised by the Snooks at no.148 and therefore when a relationship developed between the two families. (The latter would have extended to the family at no. 152 where George Snook's daughter was lady of the house). There is, I suppose, just the faintest possibility that a friendship had developed sufficiently for pity to be taken on the temporarily homeless and recently widowed Charles and he was given hospitality there until he had sorted himself out.

But what seems certain and that is the fact that Charles was definitely living for a short while in Station Road, something my brother suspected in his researches but never managed to establish beyond all doubt. And that is I suppose where I need to leave it!

Chris
 
You referred to 152 station Road so I decided to take a closer look.
The Thompson family lived there
By 1939 George (head of family) had died but the entry is
1758360974754.png

1911 they have a boarder but I am not sure how common this was as there isn't one on other records
1911.jpg

Why is all this relevant? Well - I came across the marriage of George and Caroline. George Snook was a witness and Caroline's maiden name was Snook. (her name is Caroline Tovey Snook) She is not George Snook's sister as their father's names are different but there must be a connection.
So I am left wondering if Charles knew either of the families and that is why he stayed there - perhaps he did stay with his "friends" the Thompsons. More digging needed.
Thompson annotated.jpg
 
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After a bit more digging I think I am confused over too many George's :D

Not sure it offers any solution to where Charles lived but it does link the families from 148 and 152.
 
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Yes, Janice, Caroline was George Snook's daughter. She married into a local bulding family. Which explains George's arrival a little later in Station Road. I know quite a bit about that Thompson family and will post later. Remarkable period of occupation. (Am on the Severn Valley Railway at present and so bit restricted regarding communication!)

Chris
 
Pretty sure I've got the correct person.

As we know they are just a snapshot but Elsie is listed on both the 1901 and 1911 census with her mother and a sister. On the 1901 one her father is there as well but in 1911 he is with another in Harborne (High St). He is still there in 1921 and 1939 with said woman.

On his probate in 1949 it is still his address and Elsie is listed as executrix.
 
Sorry - I've got lost. (Not difficult on this thread) but who is Elsie?

Elsie Tovey, Chris' mom. You posted her marriage certificate on post #103. Also listed as Freda Elsie.

Her grandmother was Elizabeth Tovey who married George Snook. Elsie's father, George Thomas Tovey, was an illegitimate son of Elizabeth.

Caroline (mentioned above) was George's daughter with his first wife, who I think was Elizabeth's sister _ Mary Ann.
 
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I DID say my mother's early life was a bit complicated!!

She was indeed Elsie Tovey - later calling herself Freda Elsie Tovey (1899-1995). Her story could perhaps be the subject of a further thread, some time, because there were there as well one or two unexplained wrinkles, but probably not here, at this moment. So, just briefly:

For complicated reasons she was brought up not by her own mother but by Elizabeth (Tovey) Snook, her paternal grandmother. Elizabeth had had a relationship with a man but didn't quite get around to solemnising it. The outcome was George Tovey, my grandfather, who retained his mother's family name. His marriage resulted in four children, two of whom didn't survive beyond the age of two or three (one because of illness, the other being run over by a cart in the street - what tragedies Victorian inner-city parents had to endure!) My mother and a sister survived. The parents shortly afterwards went their different ways and my mother went at an early age to be brought up by Elizabeth Tovey, now married to a kindly widower named George Snook. That trio moved out of Birmingham to Station Road, Knowle in around 1905, to live next-door-but one to George Snook's daughter, who was married to a man named Thompson.

The information on the census returns, mentioned by MWS, is certainly a true reflection of the situation for 1901. For 1911, however, it isn't! It is pretty certain that the two sisters had been split up by then and I know, for various reasons, that that split was a very definite and permanent one and that my mother was firmly established within the Snook household by then. It may be that, for reasons unknown and somehow or other, the census entry was falsified; or that there remained a lingering, occasional relationship with the mother and that Elsie was caught by the census when making a visit to her.

As Janice confirms, George Snook was previously married (1862) to Mary Ann Tovey and after her death married her sister Elizabeth (and son - 1877). He was able to give my mother a rather better start to life than she would otherwise have had, I suspect. And great credit to him for being willing to take on a young step-granddaughter at a relatively late stage in life, some forty years after his own children had started to appear. He and Elizabeth had been gone about 13 years before I appeared on the scene but I knew my grandfather - a product of 1870s Victorian Birmingham - quite well and retain fond memories of him in his terraced cottage in High Street, Harborne.

(I suspect that a number Birmingham Toveys are descended from a James Tovey who moved his family to the city in the mid-1860s following a change in paper-making technology in his home town of Winchcombe. He was the father of Mary Ann and Elizabeth and was described as a wire weaver which was a specialised, skilled trade within the paper industry. George Snook was another incomer, from Salisbury, at around the same time).

To follow - a bit more about the Thompsons at 152 Station Road whose lives were, for obvious reasons, closely entwined with those of the Snooks.

Chris
 
This thread has evolved (for me, fascinatingly) from a discussion on two sisters, born in the Black Country in the 1870s.

Mary and Martha Bannister developed close links with Birmingham: these were mainly left behind by Mary when she emigrated to the USA but they were always retained by Martha and later by her descendants up until the generation born in the 1950s. Most recently we have been discussing how it came about that Martha's son (my father, Charles Myers) met my mother (Elsie Tovey) in the latter part of the Great War. The key to that was Elsie being brought up in Station Road, Knowle by her grandmother (Elizabeth Tovey, later Snook) and her step-grandfather (George Snook). Close neighbours and relatives of the Snooks were the Thompson family who lived at no. 152 Station Road and I promised to provide a brief glimpse of them (even though it takes us even further off-topic!).

I never heard a lot about my mother's childhood years in Knowle (or possibly didn't listen). But subsequently it emerged that the house next-door-but-one to the Snook home in Station Road was occupied by the family of George Lewis Thompson and his wife Caroline (George Snook's daughter, m. 1883). George Thompson was the son of a local builder and the couple had two children, George Samuel and Gladys Annie. George Samuel was lost at Thiepval in 1916 and one can only imagine the grief in both the Thompson and the Snook households, certainly shared by my mother as a 16-year-old. But never mentioned in my hearing, I don't think. The daughter married (another Thompson) and lived elsewhere in Station Road. In 1939 Caroline was still at Brighton House, no. 152, together with, now, her daughter and son-in-law and their daughter Muriel (b.1921). Muriel lived there until her own death as recently as 2012 and so the house had been in the ownership of one family for more than a century. By that time it was very much run down (see the image of it I posted earlier) and probably on the verge of demolition but, fortunately, escaped that fate and was renovated to the condition in which it remains to this day.

How the Thompson story fits in with that of Martha Bannister- with her son, Charles Myers being photographed in their front garden in Station Road and his future wife, Elsie Tovey, my mother, living a couple of doors away - has now got more than a little stretched!

Chris
 
Elsie is also listed with George & Elizabeth Snook on the 1911 census. The transcript at least has her name incorrectly as Elise. Listed as a visitor rather than a grand daughter, a little surprising.

So possibly Rebecca misunderstood the question in 1911 and listed both her living daughters though Elsie wasn't there.
 
Thanks, MWS. I wonder if there was something a bit odd about Elsie's informal adoption and/or if the mother, Rebecca Tovey (née Brown, 1871-1945) was being "careful" and perhaps had a reason for concealing the fact that she no longer had the responsibility of caring for her eleven-year-old.

To the best of my knowledge at the time , the mother was lost to our family, to the extent that neither I nor my elder siblings ever had a "grannie" to indulge us - grandma Martha (Bannister/Myers) having died four years before the eldest of us; and a Grandma Tovey who was always described as having died in the early days of the 20th century (and who would have normally been paired with our Grandpa Tovey, whom all of us DID know well). In fact Grandma Tovey was alive and kicking up until 1945, eventually living nearby in Erdington, as my brother discovered shortly before Elsie died in 1995. After her death, and despite her continuing denial of her mother's existence to us, I established - by contact with the daughter of Elsie's surviving sister - that Elsie, my mother, had had regular contact with her own mother throughout the 1920s and 1930s. I have even seen a 1930s Christmas gift from Elsie to her mother. All of this came as a bit of a surprise to the three of us, to say the least! My father must have been a party to it as well. It must have been uncomfottable for them, knowingly to deceive their children for the best part of a lifetime.

I believe that there may well have been a benign and kind explanation for this remarkable lie, maintained determinedly for over seventy years, which I won't go into here. It no doubt relates to the extent of the trauma surrounding any marriage breakup in the late Victorian/early Edwardian period. But it all worked out in the end. It was just that I and my siblings were disappointed never to have had a grannie, unlike all our friends .....

(Again, I TOLD you that part of our family history was complicated!!)

Chris
 
1911 with Rebecca plus address
 

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1901 census has Elsie at 10 ct 5 Great Colmore Street and there is a boarder - George Snook. (the word on the right says - worker)
1758477096439.png
 
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The other daughter Clara appears to have died aged 2.
Then there was Beatrice who Rebecca appears.to have lived with in 1921 and 1939.
 
Thank you again, Janice.

Poor little Clara Tovey died in tragic circumstances two years later. She died on 20 April 1903 at only two years of age at Queen's Hospital. The cause of death was given as Shock following Head Injuries after having been run over by a cart. The inquest, conducted by Isaac Bradley, Coroner for Birmingham, was held on 22 April 1903 and returned a verdict of "Accidental Death". I may have a note somewhere of where the accident occurred – possibly in the street outside her home – but can't lay my hands on it at the moment. Probably Great Colmore Street. This tragedy succeeds an earlier one, of 1896, where the couple's first-born, a little boy named George Thomas Tovey (exactly the same name as his father) died at the age of two from Acute Pneumonia and Cardiac Failure. I believe that both these dreadful events were associated with the subsequent breakdown of the parents' marriage.

Beatrice Tovey, with my mother Elsie, were the two surviving children of the marriage. As the information indicates, the mother, Rebecca Tovey, lived with Beatrice, probably for much of her life up to 1945. Beatrice's first husband, John Guest and father of her only child, died in a Luftwaffe attack on the Castle Bromwich Spitfire factory in 1940. I met Beatrice's daughter, Frances - Beatrice's only child - just once, about 30 years ago after my mother's death. That was when I learned a lot about the history, on the maternal side, of my mother's family. (Although some mystery still surrounds the origins of Rebecca, my grandmother - I was nine when she died and could, so easily, have had some sort of relationship with her and memory of her despite the disruption of WW2, had circumstances been different).

AND I might have known for certain the identity of that George Snook, carpenter, who had been living with these ladies as a lodger in 1921. Clearly there because of the relationship between the Tovey and Snook families, dating back to the 1862 marriage of George and Mary Ann Snook née Tovey and later the second, 1877 marriage to Elizabeth Tovey, Mary Ann's younger sister and my gt-grandmother. This carpenter George Snook may probably have been a grandson of George and Mary Ann, via one of their four sons and yet another distant Brummie blood relation of mine. (IF you are still following me!! Blimey, this is so complicated....)

Just as a side comment. I think that several of these Toveys and Snooks were at various times employed in the thimble-making factory - in Floodgate Street - belonging to George Snook senior when he was helping to bring up my mother in Station Road, Knowle.

Chris
 
Not sure if you have seen this,
Birmingham Mail - Tuesday 21 April 1903.jpg

At the moment I can't find a Stoney Place marked on the map of Main Street nor find it listed on the nearest census (1901).
 
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