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Witton Cemetery, Birmingham, England.

Julie Treharne

Julie Treharne

proper brummie kid
I have details from "Warwickshire Burials" of a Frederick Carter who died in 1896 and was buried at Witton Cemetery. No dates or age of deceased on this record. There is a very strong possibility that this is my Great Grandfather Frederick Joseph Carter. Please, where can I find out where the plot is, who is the owner of the plot and if there are any other persons in the same grave. Any other details would be appreciated too.

Find a Grave just has "ünknown."

I live in Australia and would really appreciate any information re the above.
Thanks in advance,
Julie Treharne
 

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julie that burial you found for witton was in the april of 1896 no age given however looking on ancestry there is a death record for a frederick carter born about 1856 died in the june of 1896 so after the witton burial i realise that this year of birth is about 4 years out though..do you think you could post his birth cert

lyn
 
Hi Lyn.
Yes, something is not quite right here. I have been looking for FJC's death date for about 20 years now and thought I might be able to find out who owned the plot in the Witton Cemetery. I think FJC was a bit of a scoundrel and I have conjured up so many different scenarios that it is not funny!
attached are FJC's Death, Marriage & birth certificates. My Grandfather Fred Osmond Carter was the eldest of FJC's children and my Mother said that his Father died when Fred Osmond Carter was 12 years old and so he had to look after his siblings. My Grandfather FOC was born in 1884 so if he was 12 years old when his father died then that would make the year of death 1896.

FJC's wife said that she was "Married" on the 1901 Census, but then on the 1911 Census she was a "widow. Maybe on the 1901 Census, Elizabeth still considered herself to be "Married," even though she was a widow.

I have 10 related newspaper articles about FJC as he was Bankrupt and he always had an excuse for not showing up to the Court. I could never find what the outcome of the Court proceedings was. I enquired at Birmingham City Library and they could not help because they lost a lot of the records in the fire. These Court proceedings were between Dec 1894 and late 1895. I have all of FJC's children's marriage certificates and they all say that there Father was deceased at the time of their marriage.

I have attached a copy of My Grandparents wedding photo and as you can see they looked very well off. Where did all the money come from?
FJC's wife Elizabeth doesn't look very happy that her husband is not there for their oldest son's wedding!!
Elizabeth died in 1919 (widow) and is buried at Brandwood End Cemetery with one of her daughters and the daughters husband. The daughter and husband were killed in the Birmingham Air Raids in 1944.

Question is - Why wasn't Elizabeth buried with her husband FJC?? Perhaps FJC was buried with his parents....

I am grateful for your interest in helping me.
Thank you, Julie
 

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The Witton burial fits the death record. Died 3rd April and buried in April. But it is several years out in age.
1731921598391.png

Death records on Ancestry are confusing because they give the quarter (in this case June quarter ie Apr, May or June).
 
I am confused.
Birth cert gives dob 1861 father Joseph
Marriage cert is date 1917 Father William - this is not the marriage cert of Frederick Joseph born in 1861. Have you attached the wrong cert?
Death cert is dated 1896 aged 40
 
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no he did not have a sister Mary Ann Harrison. I have had that certificate for quite a few years and I dismissed it because he didn't have a
"Sister Mary Anne Harrison." However, when I saw that there was a burial for Frederick Joseph Carter at Witton Cemetery, I looked again at this death certificate and saw that he died at Queen's Hospital. I then thought that the witness, Mary Anne Harrison could have been a Sister/nurse at the hospital who witnessed his death.
 
pjmburns said:
Is this his marriage?
View attachment 196780
Click to expand...
Yes this is his Marriage Cert.
pjmburns said:
I am confused.
Birth cert gives dob 1861 father Joseph
Marriage cert is date 1917 Father William - this is not the marriage cert of Frederick Joseph born in 1861. Have you attached the wrong cert?
Death cert is dated 1896 aged 40
Click to expand...
I am so sorry...I attached a wrong marriage Certificate. i.e. FJC marriage to Gwendoline. I thought that he might have remarried. Please disregard that certificate.
 
I would expect it to say nurse and I don't think a nurse would have registered the death. More likely if no next of kin an admin person.

I am wondering if the fact Elizabeth says married on 1901 and widow on 1911 means he disappeared somewhere after the bankrupcy proceedings. Dying between those dates. That is pure conjecture though.
 
pjmburns said:
I would expect it to say nurse and I don't think a nurse would have registered the death. More likely if no next of kin an admin person.

I am wondering if the fact Elizabeth says married on 1901 and widow on 1911 means he disappeared somewhere after the bankrupcy proceedings. Dying between those dates. That is pure conjecture though.
Click to expand...
Yes I hear you Lyn re disappearing. In one of the newspaper articles, his lawyer told the judge that his client had sent a telegram from London saying that he had missed the train. He had a married daughter living in London area. Did he stay with her? Did he take on a new identity? Did he have a stash of diamonds and go to Switzerland or did he go to America? MY mind races.
He traded under the name of Carter and Co. Who was the Co? They were in Vyse Street (sorry, it is late at night) in Jewellers Row. Jewellers Row is still there today apparently.

If he was bankrupt, then he may have had a paupers burial and that is why Elizabeth is not in the same grave. So many questions...
 
Maybe nothing, but interesting that (Sister) Mary Ann Harrison belonged to a family of Jewellers, silversmith etc. Maybe he attached himself to that family on the Census and called her his Sister.
 
hi julie...could i ask how you know that jewellers row still exists and where is it...i worked in vyse st and cant remember seeing it that does not mean to say its not there as it could have been a little alley way...thanks

lyn
 
This is crazy! I have seen a message from you on my I phone but I can't see it on my Android PC. Anyway....Yes I do know about Florence Irene Carter marrying Robert William Harrison. Florence was 31 years old and Robert was a Widower with 3 children, Ethel, William and Margaret. I don't know if Robert and Florence had any children together. Yes I do know that Florence and Robert were killed in their home during the Blitz and I have left a memorial on the Commonwealth War Graves Commission site. Also Florence and Robert are buried with FJC's wife Elizabeth at Brandwood End Cemetery. I have a photo of their grave. Yes I saw that Alyce Vivian Turner was the Executrix of the Will. I don't know if she and Turner had any children. Sometimes it just gets too darn hard.
Astoness said:
hi julie...could i ask how you know that jewellers row still exists and where is it...i worked in vyse st and cant remember seeing it that does not mean to say its not there as it could have been a little alley way...thanks

lyn
Click to expand...
Well I may be wrong but I googled the address and was surprised to see it still there. Saying that, I have 2 cataracts coming off on January 6th so everything is not as clear as it should be. Brain is a bit foggy too...just turned 77 last month.
Just had another Google and yes it still exists with Jewelry stores, Bicknell, Stanley, Sonnys, James Newman, Bond and Martin and some others. They are all in the Jewelry Quarter.
 
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I have just searched the 1890, 1892 and 1895 (only ones online) directories and can find no listing for Carter and Co.
Also not listed at 89 Vyse STreet as referred to in the newspaper articles.

Do you mean the Jewellery Quarter? Those jewellers seem to be listed on Vyse street.
 
This is a really long shot! Note that most of them are in the jewelry trade FJC would have known this family. Interesting too is that Mary Ann Harrison is a "Sister" to the head of the household. Maybe this is our "Sister"Mary Ann Harrison on the death certificate.
I have to go to bed. Bye
 

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pjmburns said:
I have just searched the 1890, 1892 and 1895 (only ones online) directories and can find no listing for Carter and Co.
Also not listed at 89 Vyse STreet as referred to in the newspaper articles.

Do you mean the Jewellery Quarter? Those jewellers seem to be listed on Vyse street.
Click to expand...
Oh gosh...I have seen it somewhere but I can't find it!

Did you read in one of the newspaper articles that FJC had deposited a piano with his solicitor as payment?
Also he was not trading at the moment but was assisting his wife in her business for which she paid him 1Pound per week!
So what was her business, I wonder.
 

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Julie Treharne said:
Oh gosh...I have seen it somewhere but I can't find it!

Did you read in one of the newspaper articles that FJC had deposited a piano with his solicitor as payment?
Also he was not trading at the moment but was assisting his wife in her business for which she paid him 1Pound per week!
So what was her business, I wonder.
Click to expand...
Yes - had to smile at that article. I wondered what her business was - apart from taking in boarders.

Go to bed whatever time it is where you are. Lyn and I will carry on digging
 
just before you go to bed... as far as i can tell no 89 vyse street is still there...this is the address that frederick was trading from in 1894 as stated in the newspaper article...click on the link to see todays google st view..no 89 is the building with the black steps leading up

www.google.com

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.
www.google.com www.google.com
 
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Astoness said:
just before you go to bed... as far as i can tell no 89 vyse street is still there...this is the address that frederick was trading from in 1894 as stated in the newspaper article...click on the link to see todays google st view..no 89 is the building with the black steps leading up

www.google.com

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.
www.google.com www.google.com
Click to expand...
Wow! This is fabulous. Thank you for sharing
 
julie also mentioned in one of the newspaper articles it says that frederick lived at 102 thornhill road...that is also still there..click on link below to street view..you can see the number 102 on the black door

lyn

www.google.com

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.
www.google.com www.google.com
 
Astoness said:
julie also mentioned in one of the newspaper articles it says that frederick lived at 102 thornhill road...that is also still there..click on link below to street view..you can see the number 102 on the black door

lyn

www.google.com

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.
www.google.com www.google.com
Click to expand...
I love this photo of 102 Thornhill Road. Thank you Lyn for posting this. Cheers
 
Julie Treharne said:
Maybe nothing, but interesting that (Sister) Mary Ann Harrison belonged to a family of Jewellers, silversmith etc. Maybe he attached himself to that family on the Census and called her his Sister.
Click to expand...
I think this is the Mary Ann Harrison on the death certificate.
At 43 Inkerman Street on the 1891 census and with her husband George and a George Woodward boarder.

1732024651091.png

So not the one in the family of jewellers.
 
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