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ww1 conscientious objectors

Davenport

master brummie
I wonder if anyone could help with this subject. My grandfather A.E.Davenport was a Conscientious Objector in WW1, he was a church member of Billesley Baptist church. I was told by an older family member a few years ago that he was 'a door man in Prison' but i suspect he was well behind a Prison door!
Are these facts recorded in the local newspaper or held with any Church records? or are you able to research Prison records?
thank you, Clive
 
hi davenport
"Conches" were badly treated in WW1 they were even kept in the Tower, when a guardsman doing cerimonial dutys there some of the old cells still had little drawings on the walls. I am not sure but I believe there is a list somewhere court records or something like that, I am sure someone on the forum will know.
regards
paul
 
Thanks Paul, Grandads father was in the 6th Warwickshire foot regiment , so Grandad must have been some what of a disapointment , resulting in being cut out of his Fathers will!! regards Clive
 
I have been told that most prison records for Winson Green were destroyed. I am not sure if such an event would have been in a newspaper. Court records are kept at Central Library but how many I am not sure. A lot of consensus objectors were due to religious reasons. As Paul says they had a hard time in WW1.
 
All men who sought an exemption from military service had to appear before a local tribunal. The 'interrogations' were widely reported in local newspapers. However, the bigger problem is finding the newspaper most likely to cover the Billesley area. Heritage, Bham Reference Library might to be able to advise as to whether there was a Kings Heath local paper 1916-1918. The Heritage Catalogue might also have relevant material as they do on the Friends activity (Quakers as well as Christadelphians)

There is some good stuff on treatment of 'conchies' from the point of view of the commandant of a detention centre at Hereford in the fairly recent book on Captain Robert Hamilton's diary (ex 1st Royal Warwicks)
 
Hi Davenport
There is a lot of controversy about the "conche" question, mainly as in this period religion is not taken as seriously as in the early years of the last century and the Christian doctrine of never taking an human life was very important to some of these people. But there were some extremely brave and heroic "conches" some volunteered to serve as stretcher bearers and where put purposely in harms way and some won the highest military awards. The Quakers have never served in a military role in any war, and the baptists were also reluctant to fight but these beliefs were very highly held, it would have been much easier to have put on the Kings uniform, so rather than be put off by your ancestor's role it might be he was just as brave as your Grandad's Father all be it in another way. I am not religious and was a serving soldier and so is my son, I try not to be judgmentle in these cases, like the executed soldiers in WW1 most just boys the standards and expectations were totally different to ours to day.
Regards
Paul
 
The ancestor of a friend of mine was a 'conchie' in WW1, and rather than suffer the slings and arrows of those whose fathers and sons went to the trenches he volunteered to drive an ambulance. The story is that he survived almost to the final days of the war, when a stray shell landed close to the first-aid post he was serving, and killed him and several others. If true (and I have no reason to suspect that it isn't), then it's a rather touching story.

I don't think it was, or is, fair to label 'conchies' as cowards. They were (and are) men and women whose moral code forbids them to take part in the wanton destruction of their fellow human-beings. When I lived in the USA I knew a man who received his draft-papers for Vietnam, yet was morally unable to accept that he might be involved in the killing of other humans, and went to Sweden where he lived for a long time. I understand that when he tried to return to the USA in the 1980's he was refused entry as, quote, an undesirable. He was eventually let back in on 'compassionate grounds'. That, I think, is very sad.

Big Gee
 
The ancestor of a friend of mine was a 'conchie' in WW1, and rather than suffer the slings and arrows of those whose fathers and sons went to the trenches he volunteered to drive an ambulance. The story is that he survived almost to the final days of the war, when a stray shell landed close to the first-aid post he was serving, and killed him and several others. If true (and I have no reason to suspect that it isn't), then it's a rather touching story.

I don't think it was, or is, fair to label 'conchies' as cowards. They were (and are) men and women whose moral code forbids them to take part in the wanton destruction of their fellow human-beings. When I lived in the USA I knew a man who received his draft-papers for Vietnam, yet was morally unable to accept that he might be involved in the killing of other humans, and went to Sweden where he lived for a long time. I understand that when he tried to return to the USA in the 1980's he was refused entry as, quote, an undesirable. He was eventually let back in on 'compassionate grounds'. That, I think, is very sad.

Big Gee

Some of the bravest of the brave, were 'conchies' - those that were stretcher-bearers/medics etc. However, I'm not so sure about those who stayed at home and chose prison as an alternative....perhaps some were genuine cases of 'objection' on religious grounds; others, I fear were otherwise.
 
Some of the bravest of the brave, were 'conchies' - those that were stretcher-bearers/medics etc. However, I'm not so sure about those who stayed at home and chose prison as an alternative....perhaps some were genuine cases of 'objection' on religious grounds; others, I fear were otherwise.

There is no evidence to suggest that any of the 16000 were shirkers as implied. There was ,however, plenty of 'propaganda' at the time from a variety of sources to suggest that was the case.
 
There is no evidence to suggest that any of the 16000 were shirkers as implied. There was ,however, plenty of 'propaganda' at the time from a variety of sources to suggest that was the case.


What is this figure of '16000'? Is that the total of all conscientious objectors; or those who refused any alternative service? As stated, those who still served their country, often in the most dangerous of situations, are clearly NOT cowards. However, it would be massively naive to suggest that there were no actual 'cowards' hiding under the guise of 'conscience'......and, what ''evidence'' would there be??? They would hardly take-out a newspaper advertisement to the fact. Regardless of 'proganda', human nature being what it is, surely in part, negates much of your point? I think it is a pretty reasonable assertion that some 'conscientious objectors' were indeed cowards.
 
You need some facts..

c16100 conscientious objectors
Of these....

3300 opted for non-combatant corps
2400 worked in ambulances or as stretcher-bearers at the front
3964 accepted alternative work at home
6261 served at least one prison sentence. But only 1350 of these were absolutists who stuck by their objection 100% with no compromise.

About 100 were tortured, sometimes sadistically
34 were sentenced to death but not carried out
73 died in prison
31 were driven mad

There were so many hoops to go through via tribunals etc to be recognised as a conscientious objector, as well as the hostility of the tribunal panels many of whom thought that they were cowards, that for 'shirkers/cowards' to be among the 16100 would be highly unlikely. Shirkers were more likely to be found amongst those claiming exemption on other grounds. The above is a reasonable inference based upon the evidence and not an assertion.
 
I certainly didnt realise that this subject would still be so emotive in 2009.
Thanks Alan Tucker and Paul Stacey for your input, and Alans statistics are so informative. Personally i can only speak from my own family memories; Grandad was a hard working family man (like most of us) who brought up three children BUT was a devote Baptist, i remember him from the late 1950s to his death in 1968 as a very quiet personal man, who incidentally never talked about his faith at home,as far as i can remember.
As all other family members are now deceased ,this was the reason for my enquiery, the passing comment that he was 'a doorman' is the only info i have . what other duties he did i do not know .
I can say however that as far as i know he would not have been 'just a coward '!
best regards Clive
 
Alan Tucker's statistics are certainly helpful, but slightly inaccurate in one respect, and require updating in two other respects. Of the WW1 COs who died as a result of the way they were treated, ten actually died in prison, not 73. On the other hand, since that figure of 73 WW1 CO deaths overall was compiled over 40 years ago, more names have come to light, giving a figure of more than 80. Also, recent research has shown that the figure for WW1 COs formally sentenced to death, and then reprieved, was 35, rather than 34. As with the Men Who Died, the names all the Men Sentenced to Death are known.

As to researching individual WW1 COs, the official tribunal records of WW1 COs were destroyed in 1921, except for those relating to the old county of Middlesex, now in the National Archives (certain other records have also survived elsewhere, but none are known for Birmingham). Partly in order to fill this gap, the Peace Pledge Union (PPU) is compiling a database of every individual British CO it can trace (3900 WW1 names so far). Access to the database is via the PPU Archivist archives@ppu.org.uk The Archivist is often also able to give advice on other lines of research, including periods relevant for trawling local newspapers and the possibility of prison records. Incidentally, Birmingham COs were not necessarily held in Winson Green Prison.
 
Hi Rowland and thank's for this exra info. i think that possibly Grandad was at Dartmoor. I will certaily contact PPU. Clive.
 
Yes, your grandfather, Albert E Davenport, was in the Home Office Work Centre, Princetown, Devon, based in the former and later Dartmoor Prison. He is commemorated in the Roll of Honour of the Birmingham Branch of the Fellowship of Reconciliation, published c 1917, and held in the Birmingham Central Reference Library.

I hope that the PPU were able to give you further background information.
 
Dear Rowland
I am so grateful to you for this information,it is the most that i have ever known about Grandad at this period of his life.
The next time i Visit 'home' i will visit the Library and see if i can view this roll of honour.
I am sorry to admit that work ( and decorating) has delayed me contacting Peace Pledge Union but it is now top of the to do list.
Heartfelt thanks again.....you've made my day. Clive
 
Hi Rowland. I hope you and others may find this reply of interest. thanks again Rowland, Clive

Thank you for your interesting enquiry about your grandfather, Albert Edward Davenport, as a WW1 conscientious objector.

He is, indeed, commemorated in the Roll of Honour of the Birmingham Branch of the Fellowship of Reconciliation (FoR), a copy of which we hold here, and is at present my only source for specific information on him. The Roll of Honour, a slim booklet listing very briefly Birmingham FoR COs, is undated, but internal evidence indicates a date of late 1917. It is good to know that there is also a copy in the Birmingham Reference Library, as local records on COs are often hard to come by.

The major problem is that in 1921 all the official tribunal records of WW1 COs were ordered to be destroyed, as redundant and taking up space, except for the Middlesex records, kept as a an example of the way the system worked. There was little thought of people researching individual COs.

Nevertheless, it is possible to reconstruct from the FoR mention of your grandfather being in Princetown Work Centre a general scenario. He would have appeared before the Birmingham Local Military Service Tribunal, and it may be presumed that he was either rejected outright, or offered only a place in the Non-Combatant Corps (NCC), a corps in the Army created especially for COs, whereby there was a commitment that the members would not be required to use or handle weapons; that option was acceptable to few COs, who saw the NCC as part of the 'war machine', even without weapons. He would have had a right of appeal to an Appeal Tribunal, but we may presume that that made no effective change; recognition of COs was very sparingly given.

The next step is that as a man now deemed in law to be on the Army reserve, he would have been sent a notice to report to an Army depot, which notice he would doubtless have ignored - he knew that he was a CO, and it was the state's problem if it refused to recognise him. He might have been sent one or two more similar notices, which he would also have ignored, so eventually a police constable would have come to his door to arrest him as an absentee from the Army. As a devout Baptist, he would have 'gone quietly', and when brought before the local Magistrates' Court he would have acknowledged who he was and ignoring the notices, but argued his conscientious objection. The magistrates would have said that all that had been dealt with by the Tribunals, and would have fined him, probably 40s, and handed him over to a waiting military escort. The military would have taken him to wherever he was supposed to have reported in the first place, and at some point he would have been given a formal order, such as to put on a uniform. He would have, doubtless very politely, refused, and after one or more formal warnings as to the consequences, he would have been charged under military law with refusing to obey an order, and, in due course brought before a court-martial. His plea, again of conscientious objection, would have been ignored, and he would have been sentenced, quite possibly to 112 days hard labour, the usual first sentence, although some first sentences were shorter or longer.

Although awarded by court-martial for an offence for which a civilian could not be punished in this way, such a sentence was served in a ordinary civilian prison. Your grandfather could have been sent to Winson Green, the local Birmingham prison, but not necessarily so, particularly if his allocated depot was some distance from Birmingham. As civil prisons began to fill up with COs held in this way, the government had to re-think its strategy for dealing with COs, with the knowledge that the intransigence of Tribunals over recognising COs was a major part of the problem. A system called the Home Office Scheme was devised, whereby work centres and work camps were set up in various parts of the country, in which COs could be housed in less rigorous conditions than prison, but be required to work. An overarching Central Tribunal was commissioned to reconsider the case of each imprisoned CO, and to invite them for interview, with a view to admission to the Scheme.

The interviews were held in Wormwood Scrubs Prison, to which COs were transferred for the purpose. It is very likely that your grandfather was transferred there from whatever prison he had originally been held in, as we know he was admitted to the Scheme. Among the places designated as Home Office work centres were four prisons: Wakefield, Warwick, Knutsford and Dartmoor. The conversion to work centres comprised mainly the removal locks from the doors of cells, which became 'rooms', the wearing of ordinary clothes rather than prison uniforms and permission to go out of the centre in the evenings and on Sundays. Dartmoor, which had already closed as a prison (it was deemed too old a building) was not re-opened as a work centre until March 1917, so it is likely that your grandfather was in some other work centre prior to Princetown.

Most COs were given final discharge from work centres in April 1919, so it is reasonable to assume that that was the date of your grandfather's release. As to earlier timing, it partly depends on your grandfather's age, and whether he had already married by August 1915. (Conscription legislation could be tortuously complicated). The Central Tribunal's sittings at Wormwood Scrubs for the HO Scheme began in August 1916.

That is probably enough for an initial response. If you could give me your grandfather's date of birth and his date of marriage, I could suggest a time slot for a trawl of the Birmingham press for reports of his tribunals and Magistrates' Court hearings.

Partly to fill the gap left by by destruction of the Tribunal records, and to deal with enquiries such as yours, we are building a database of every British CO of whom we have any trace (3900 WW1 COs so far). Your grandfather was initially entered in 2005 (waiting for you!) from the details in the FoR Roll of Honour, to which I have now added the name, address and denominational details you have supplied. For the record, his date of death and his normal occupation would be helpful.

We have published a booklet, Refusing to Kill, about WW1 COs, for which I attach a flyer.

I look forward to hearing from you further.

Best wishes
 
Bingo! Sorry, your Baptist granddad would probably have frowned on even such a mild form of gambling as bingo.

More seriously, this reply is even more thorough than I thought it might be when I suggested contacting the PPU. I especially liked the idea that your grandfather has been sitting in the PPU database since 2005 waiting for your contact. I wonder whether Chris Baker, in the other WW1 CO thread, has approached the PPU with a similar response concerning his search for a, so far anonymous, CO. Your example has demonstarated that actually naming the person you are looking for not only livens things up, but can also speed things up. Keep us informed of progress.
 
I think one the difficulty's we have to-day is understanding the way people thought and looked at life at this time in history, we are less religous to-day but would understand better, the individuals feelings. We are a little sceptical to-day about putting religous belief before duty to country, back then it was considered "seditious" . In France, CO's were sent to devils island, in Germany they were shot. So it's all to easy to condem the authorities here faced with keeping up moral, with massive deaths and maimings of WW1, and of cause the feelings of the general public who by and large considered these CO's as nothing less than cowards. There are reports of them being set upon by crowds and seriously injured. For myself when I read about such force of character, and personal bravery, let alone with a belief so profound they are willing to face death rather than submit, I am rather humbled and over-awed, and doubt I would have such courage. To the general public, (Military both senior and lower ranks included) would not have seen it this way and to a mother/father who had lost a beloved son it would have been seen as henious. By in large in the Uk they were not treated so badley and of course some did serve in the ranks of the military and earned some of the highest military awards.
paul
 
Thanks, Paul, for your comment. It is, however, important to remember a significant difference between the WW1 CO situation in Britain, on the one hand, and in France and Germany, on the other hand. France and Germany had no pretence of recognising conscientious objection and COs were dealt with in the ways described. In Britain, the very same law that brought in conscription, the Military Service Act 1916, also provided for conscientious objection. The problem was that the authority for recognising individual conscientious objection was put in the hands of generally extremely prejudiced people, who arbitrarily refused to recognise sincere men, leaving them to face years of imprisonment. In WW2 different arrangements were made, leading to far fewerarbitrary rejections and consequent imprisonment.
 
What you have said is very true Rowland, and that was the point I was trying to make (badley), the arbitration system was placed in the hands of extreamley unsypathetic, quite frankley biased individuals, very simular to the "Courts marshalls" (WW1) systems in the death sentencing of obviously innocent men and boys, ( for the common good and retention of moral, and good order and disapline). this has covered a great many sins in the military for century's.
regards
paul
 
There is actually a Birmingham connection to this point, and I should have made it earlier. Neville Chamberlain, as Lord Mayor in WW1, sat on the Birmingham Tribunal, and realised later how badly things had been handled. When, as Prime Minister, he re-introduced conscription in May 1939, he made a speech in the House of Commons emphasising the need to make much better provisions for conscientious objectors, and this is essentially what happened. Incidentally, also, Winston Churchill, as Prime Minister, had a WW1 CO sitting alongside him in Cabinet - Herbert Morrison, Home Secretary.
 
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