William Humphries

[evacar52]

Quick question - how are the Molesworths the grandparents?

This was quite a mystery to me and took some time to unravel. Harriet Humphries was born as Harriet Merry. Her mother, Frances Merry, married the widowed John Molesworthin 1852. On the census forms all children, including Hohn Molesworth's children from his first marriage and Harriet are listed as Molesworth. When Harriet Merry, marries William Humphries she lists her father as Henry Merry, a tailor and uses her birth name of Merry. I have not been able to find any information on Henry Merry nor the possible marriage with with Frances Merry. I noticed that John Molesworth had signed the marriage banns as witness and that Frances Martha Humphries was listed as a grand daughter on Frances and John Molesworth's census forms. The other children of Harriet and William live with William and Harriet just not the first born, Frances Martha Humpries (my great grandmother). I suppose I shall never find an answer to that riddle.

Carol

 

[evacar52]

Quick question - how are the Molesworths the grandparents?

I did send a not about the Molesworth connection attached to one of your other posts.
Carol

 

[evacar52]

Janice
The Genealogist have Worcestershire Parish Records, though I do not know how complete they are. Searching for 1825+/- 5 years for births show
1820 Kidderminster St Mary , parents Thomas & Ann, living Mill St, father was Weaver
1823 Kidderminster St Mary, parents, William & Ann, living Queen St, father was victualler
1829 Pershore holy Cross, parents Henry & Ann, living Evesham, father was gardener
1830 Kidderminster St Mary, parents William & Ann, living at Mill St, father was grocer (Here baptism was of William Hassall Humphreys

Thanks for the information about the Worcestershire Parish Records. William Humphreys states on his marriage banns to Harriet Merry that his father was Edward Humphries and a baker so I don't think the above are matches.
Carol

 

[evacar52]

hi evacar just to quote a bit of this post you made

Thanks Lyn. You are right he is not on the 1871 census, just Harriet his wife and 2 of William and Harriet's children.

if you have got harriet on the 71 living with just 2 children i think i must have the wrong harriet humphries as ive got one on the 1871 census living in redditch age 35 widow living with 5 children the eldest being aged 14

lyn

Yes you are right, 1861 she and William are listed with 2 children. In the 1871 census the widowed Harriet has 5 children living with her. Her eldest, Frances Martha Humphries lived with her now widowed grandmother, Frances Molesworth.
Carol

 

[evacar52]

Frances appears to be Harriet's mother and despite Harriet listing Henry as her father on her marriage I think Harriet might be illegitimate.

Frances Merry marries John Molesworth in 1836.

On the 1841 census they are living in Solihull and there are 4 children are listed as Molesworth, they appear to be 2 sons from John's first marriages and 2 daughters of Frances.

There is a baptism for an Ann Milward Merry mother Frances in Redditch 1830.

No baptism for a Harriet Merry but there is a baptism for Harriet Middleton mother Frances in Redditch 1833. Could be father's name???

Yes I am not sure about Ann Molesworth. I have not found a baptism record as I have done for the two sons but Ann's birth 1830 means she could be John and Elizabeth Farr's daughter as Elizabeth (his first wife did not die until 1833.

Would that be face saving that Harriet would list a fictitious father on her marriage certificate, I agree that Harriet could well be the illegitimate daughter of Frances Merry. I ordered the birth certificates for the children of William and Harriet Humphries and the four oldest children have their birth mother's name as Merry and the two youngest as Molesworth. All six children are the children of Harriet and William Humphries.
Carol

 

[evacar52]

Following on from my post #14.

When Ann Merry (Harriet's sister) marries in 1848 she also gives her father's name as Henry.

Oh that is so interesting. Can you give me the name of the groom as I would like to look it up.

 

[evacar52]

Re William Humphries. It seems reasonable to believe that he was the son of Edward and Martha. There is also an Edward Humphries b1825ish Redditch who gives his father's name as Edward on his marriage and I can't see no baptism for him. Nor is there one for a possible brother Enoch b1831.

Also the children who are baptised appear to be Wesleyan Methodist not Catholic.

I will order the GRO death certificate for Martha (Green) Humphries. Edward dies before 1827 but Martha dies within the record keeping of GRO. It will state the occupation of her deceased husband, Edward Humphries. That will help to confirm the birth parents of William Humphries.

 

[evacar52]

Quick question - how are the Molesworths the grandparents?

I cannot see the post where explained about the Molesworth connection. If you don't see it let me know and I will address this mysterious connection.
Carol

 

[MWS]

Re, father's name on marriage certificates - some illegitimate children put nothing, some make it up, some put their step father's first name with their own surname and other's use a relative, grandfather or brother. So it can be quite misleading at times.

Ann Merry married James Kite 25 Sep 1848 at St George's, Bham. She's a widow living on Ipsley St, Redditch in 1881.

Do death certificates give husband's occupation? But in any case it appears that Martha re-marries in 1834 to a Thomas Styles, so if it did it would probably would be his. And if Edward did die in 1827, a number of the Humphries children - Elizabeth, James and Enoch - would be illegitimate. I would guess that Elizabeth dies young because it appears Martha has daughter with Thomas Styles called Elizabeth.

 

[MWS]

These are the probable children of Edward and Martha Humphries (and Martha's with Thomas Styles).

Those in bold have baptism records and those underlined are with Martha on the 1841 census. All of the marriages apart from Charles' list Edward as father and Harriet Eliza is with Hannah and husband on the 1891 census listed as sister in law so would seem to confirm Hannah.

Which leaves just Edward and William with no corroboration. Checking marriages for witnesses (mother or married sister would be ideal) or tracing everyone might lead to something (extended family on census).

Not sure what happened to Martha & Elizabeth after 1841 or Enoch after 1851.

Harriet 1817
Charles 1818 - Hannah Gibbs (1837)
Harriet Eliza 1820 - John William Yarworth (1841)
John 1821
Edward 1824 - Sarah Taylor (1845)
William 1826 - Harriet Merry (1852)
Hannah 1828 - James Croxall (1850)
Elizabeth 1830
James 1832 - Mary Jordan (1860)
Enoch 1833

Elizabeth Styles 1836

 

[evacar52]

These are the probable children of Edward and Martha Humphries (and Martha's with Thomas Styles).

Those in bold have baptism records and those underlined are with Martha on the 1841 census. All of the marriages apart from Charles' list Edward as father and Harriet Eliza is with Hannah and husband on the 1891 census listed as sister in law so would seem to confirm Hannah.

Which leaves just Edward and William with no corroboration. Checking marriages for witnesses (mother or married sister would be ideal) or tracing everyone might lead to something (extended family on census).

Not sure what happened to Martha & Elizabeth after 1841 or Enoch after 1851.

Harriet 1817
Charles 1818 - Hannah Gibbs (1837)
Harriet Eliza 1820 - John William Yarworth (1841)
John 1821
Edward 1824 - Sarah Taylor (1845)
William 1826 - Harriet Merry (1852)
Hannah 1828 - James Croxall (1850)
Elizabeth 1830
James 1832 - Mary Jordan (1860)
Enoch 1833

Elizabeth Styles 1836

Thank you for all the names and dates. I have William Humphries marriage banns. John Molesworth is one witness and an Elizabeth Duthridg the other. Interesting that Edward, the father of William is not listed as deceased as in other banns I have seen. Are there marriage banns for the other children of Edward and Martha? I shall research the others.
Thanks again.
Carol

 

[evacar52]

Re, father's name on marriage certificates - some illegitimate children put nothing, some make it up, some put their step father's first name with their own surname and other's use a relative, grandfather or brother. So it can be quite misleading at times.

Ann Merry married James Kite 25 Sep 1848 at St George's, Bham. She's a widow living on Ipsley St, Redditch in 1881.

Do death certificates give husband's occupation? But in any case it appears that Martha re-marries in 1834 to a Thomas Styles, so if it did it would probably would be his. And if Edward did die in 1827, a number of the Humphries children - Elizabeth, James and Enoch - would be illegitimate. I would guess that Elizabeth dies young because it appears Martha has daughter with Thomas Styles called Elizabeth.

 

[evacar52]

Re, father's name on marriage certificates - some illegitimate children put nothing, some make it up, some put their step father's first name with their own surname and other's use a relative, grandfather or brother. So it can be quite misleading at times.

Ann Merry married James Kite 25 Sep 1848 at St George's, Bham. She's a widow living on Ipsley St, Redditch in 1881.

Do death certificates give husband's occupation? But in any case it appears that Martha re-marries in 1834 to a Thomas Styles, so if it did it would probably would be his. And if Edward did die in 1827, a number of the Humphries children - Elizabeth, James and Enoch - would be illegitimate. I would guess that Elizabeth dies young because it appears Martha has daughter with Thomas Styles called Elizabeth.

I believe Edward died in 1832 in Ispsley although I have not seen any documentation of this ( it was on a researchers tree).
The death certificates give occupation of the deceased, date, cause of death, who was with the deceased at time of death, address of deceased. Great sources of information. Won't help in this case if Martha remarries. Is there marriage banns for the marriage of Martha Humphries to Thomas Styles?$

 

[MWS]

I got the marriage details from familysearch but they don't have scans available. Should be on Ancestry or findmypast.

Martha's daughter with Thomas Styles listed as Elizabeth in 1841 is actually Martha Elizabeth. She marries Cornelius Pitts 21 Oct 1854 at St Bartholomew's, Tardebigge.

Found Martha Humphries, James Humphries and Martha Styles on 1851 census. They are living in Sherlock St, Bham boarders of a William Brookes. They are listed as Simphries.

 

[Astoness]

I believe Edward died in 1832 in Ispsley although I have not seen any documentation of this ( it was on a researchers tree).
The death certificates give occupation of the deceased, date, cause of death, who was with the deceased at time of death, address of deceased. Great sources of information. Won't help in this case if Martha remarries. Is there marriage banns for the marriage of Martha Humphries to Thomas Styles?$

i dont think death certs started until 1837...would need to check that though

lyn

 

[pjmburns]

Agree Lyn - you were reliant on burial records before that date.

 

[pjmburns]

Marriage record for Martha and Thomas is a Worcestershire record and they are not scanned on Ancestry as far as I know.

There is a death for an Edward Humphriss (transcription error?) aged 39 at Ipsley buried on 7th November - transcript only. Concerned as there seems to be an Edward Humphriss listed in the Warwickshire Kelly's directories.

 

[evacar52]

Marriage record for Martha and Thomas is a Worcestershire record and they are not scanned on Ancestry as far as I know.

There is a death for an Edward Humphriss (transcription error?) aged 39 at Ipsley buried on 7th November - transcript only. Concerned as there seems to be an Edward Humphriss listed in the Warwickshire Kelly's directories.
[/QUOTEI think there are a number of Edward Humphries that I have seen. Thanks for the death information.

 

[evacar52]

I wanted to go back to the post where you mention about Harriet and Ann Merry being illegitimate daughters of Franes Merry. Someone sent me some ancestral information with the information that Frances Unk married Henry Merry but I could find no documents to support this information.

 

[MWS]

There are a number of trees on Ancestry that have Harriet Merry in them. Most list Frances Merry as her mother and giving Frances' only husband as John Molesworth.

There is one that lists Henry Merry as her husband and there is one that lists Harriet's mother as Frances Unk. This one lists Frances Unk's birth as 1801 in Warwickshire, which from the censuses would appear to be incorrect.

None list Frances Merry's parents so I'd guess the details they have for her have come from census records.

Always best not to take what other people put in their trees until you confirm it.