thats true enough janice...i am quite sure that we will get to the bottom of this....
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Erdington Post Office On The Green
- Thread starter Astoness
- Start date
thats true enough janice...i am quite sure that we will get to the bottom of this....
pjmburns
master brummie
I have had another thought - well two actually. I would have thought adverts would be metal and screwed on rather than leaving a space.
The other is perhaps more to the point - perhaps the plaque was inside hence the unveiling. If it was outside and high the relatives would not have been able to see it.
Janice
The other is perhaps more to the point - perhaps the plaque was inside hence the unveiling. If it was outside and high the relatives would not have been able to see it.
Janice
No date Lyn. but below is a good scan of a post card, which I think is a coloured photograph,. Another poorer copy of it is stated to be 1905, which would be while it was a post office (you can see Wilton Road). Detail isn't very good even when enlarged though.
pjmburns
master brummie
One other thing - I am convinced it must be this post office as the archive simply refers to the photo as Erdington Post Office and so does the invitation. There is no other name included like "Slade Road" Post Office or similar. As if Erdington Post Office just referred to just 51 Hight Street and everyone knew that.
Janice
Janice
I agree Lyn. And I think the marble memorial is more than likely to have been inside the building. It doesn't look very weathered to me. And there doesn't seem to be any corrosion around the bolt holes. Viv.
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viv those bolt holes at the front were not the originals...while i was looking after the plaque i took pics of the back of it...rusty bolt holes that dont go through to the front so i am assuming it was first bolted on from the back..just how they do that without going through to the front i dont know.the holes at the front must have been made at a later date..if you give me a min i will show you what i mean..here you go viv pic of the back of the plaque zoom in and you can see all rust around the holes...the newer holes at the front which do not line up with the ones at the back dont go through to the back..so in other words there is knowhere on the plaque where bolts go right through it...
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Morning Lyn. How very odd but interesting. Let's assume the ones at the back were the original holes for fixing it in place. So why would second holes which don't reach through to the back be made on the front? Almost as though something else was fixed over it. Was it something to do with it being moved when the village green PO was demolished? Or was the wooden replacement plaque (with WW2 names) fixed over it at another place? The village green PO was demolished around 1938, just as WW2 was about to kick off. We know the plaque must have been put into another building, so then after WW2, was the wooden memorial fixed over it because the new memorial included the same names? I did wonder if it went into the church for a short while. All a bit off the wall - sorry for pun! Maybe someone has some other ideas. Viv.
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Hi Lyn. The plaque seems to have had an interesting journey. The more I think about it the more I imagine the plaque must have stayed somewhere in Erdington during WW2 and at least up until to the new plaque was commissioned - after all that was its proper home. You do wonder about the discussion to decide whether to have a plaque commemorating both WW1 and WW2 on the same memorial. Maybe there's a record of this somewhere. Would that have been a joint PO, St Barnabas Church, Erdington residents, local council discussion? The only reason I can see for it ending up in Ladywood was because it was probably regarded as no longer needed, being replaced by the new one, and so ended up in storage. Lots of if's, buts and maybe's. Viv.
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Phil
Gone, but not forgotten.
It's my opinion that the small indentations on the rear of the plaque were made to assist in fixing the plaque to the building. The plaque would have been most likely set on a bed of sand and cement render and being smooth in it's natural state would not have adhered easily. These indentations would have acted as a key and the two fixing points would have been a back up and would have assisted in holding the plaque whilst the sand & cement render set, well that's my theory.
pjmburns
master brummie
I did try Birmingham newspapers online in the hope its original unveiling was in the press but Birmingham papers seem to stop at 1919. This means a trip to the library - if no one else has looked in the meantime I will try to see if I can find anything when I next go up (won't be for a few weeks yet though).
Janice
Janice
Good to find out how these things were fixed Phil. Would never have worked that out. Can you tell if it was definitely fixed or inset into a wall? I ask because to remove it from set concrete without damaging surely would be quite difficult. And if the intention was to remove it without damaging it there must have been an intention to keep/preserve it. I ask because these little snippets of info might all help to work out the circumstances under which it was moved to Ladywood.Viv.
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Phil
Gone, but not forgotten.
Vivienne
I would have thought that if the plaque was fixed to an existing building that there would have been little chance of it being inset into the wall. To me it looks as if it has been manufactured to sit flush on the surface and was more than likely fixed in the manner that I have suggested.
Yes if it was fixed with a sand and cement render it might have caused a few problems removing it from the surface, but I'm only guessing what was used as a fixative, it just might well have been a sand and lime render which also might explain the clean state of the rear of the plaque.
The thing is, I'm assuming it is a marble plaque and if it is then any mortar would be hard put to stick to it. So perhaps the render was only used as a sort of cushion to protect it from the effect of the two metal fixings from being tightened to much and causing the plaque to crack?
I would have thought that if the plaque was fixed to an existing building that there would have been little chance of it being inset into the wall. To me it looks as if it has been manufactured to sit flush on the surface and was more than likely fixed in the manner that I have suggested.
Yes if it was fixed with a sand and cement render it might have caused a few problems removing it from the surface, but I'm only guessing what was used as a fixative, it just might well have been a sand and lime render which also might explain the clean state of the rear of the plaque.
The thing is, I'm assuming it is a marble plaque and if it is then any mortar would be hard put to stick to it. So perhaps the render was only used as a sort of cushion to protect it from the effect of the two metal fixings from being tightened to much and causing the plaque to crack?
thanks again phil...like phil said all these little bits of info may help us...
viv....ive pondered over this for months now and my best guess is that someone stole it from somewhere in erdington and thought it a great idea to dump it on top of a pile of rubble from a demolished building on the monument road...one day we may just find out...
lyn x
viv....ive pondered over this for months now and my best guess is that someone stole it from somewhere in erdington and thought it a great idea to dump it on top of a pile of rubble from a demolished building on the monument road...one day we may just find out...
lyn x
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Phil
Gone, but not forgotten.
Lyn
You would be surprised at just how many of these type of memorials find their way into demolition crews hands. What you have to realise is that often the final owner of a building is many times removed from the original owner of the building and very often if they were a commercial company the business no longer exists you will find that no one will lay claim to them. So most times if they are made of brass, copper, or bronze then they often will end up in the scrap bin.
You would be surprised at just how many of these type of memorials find their way into demolition crews hands. What you have to realise is that often the final owner of a building is many times removed from the original owner of the building and very often if they were a commercial company the business no longer exists you will find that no one will lay claim to them. So most times if they are made of brass, copper, or bronze then they often will end up in the scrap bin.
Hi Lyn and Phil. It's a great pity if that's the case re. our memorial. But until proved otherwise, I'd like to try and show that the plaque was moved for more practical reasons. I do have a strong sense that after WW2 the wooden (and in my opinion inferior WW2 plaque) took over in the public's view after world events in the 1930s/40s. But surely people weren't that disrespectful of their parents/grandparents efforts in WW1 to just sweep away their memorial like that? Basically I still hope that it went into storage. The fact that it was carefully removed without major damage must count for something.Viv.
Just a thought, but was this an issue for Erdington? Viv.
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viv very good chance it was removed for practical reasons as it is in very good condtition..what does my head in is just how it ended up in ladywood..
janice it was found in rubble of a demolished building on the monument road...nothing at all to suggest it was once attached to the demolished building as it was quite seperate...it was just lying there..dont worry about the imagination ive got one as well lol
just sent an email to chris taft royal mail archives..fingers crossed he may have something for us..
sorry janice i nearly forgot to the thank you for your kind offer of trying to find anything out at the library..i have an appointment there on tues so if i have time i will see what i can find out...will get back to you on that one..
lyn
janice it was found in rubble of a demolished building on the monument road...nothing at all to suggest it was once attached to the demolished building as it was quite seperate...it was just lying there..dont worry about the imagination ive got one as well lol
just sent an email to chris taft royal mail archives..fingers crossed he may have something for us..
sorry janice i nearly forgot to the thank you for your kind offer of trying to find anything out at the library..i have an appointment there on tues so if i have time i will see what i can find out...will get back to you on that one..
lyn
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Nowt wrong with a vivid imagination Janice and Lyn! One thing we do know is the plaque didn't walk to Ladywood - hang on though, just let me work through that one in my head...... Ha ha. Viv.
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hi folks just received this reply from chris taft from royal mail archives...i dont think it gets us much further in discovering just what po in erdington the plaque was placed on well not for certain anyway...gives us something to ponder on though...i think that maybe the library is now our best bet..
Hello Linda
We were indeed in touch in the past. I have gone through several records here but have been unable to find anything conclusive. Generally memorials were paid for by subscription from local staff so this is almost certainly the case with this one too. The Post Office gave permission but did not commission them directly. We have a few records of this permission being granted for offices around the country but sadly not Erdington. Basically blanket permission was given to sites so they did not need to contact the Post Office on each occasion. I have gone through the Post Office staff magazine for this period and there is no account in this either of the erection or dedication of this memorial. The only records I have for Erdington is of plans for the office to be extended in 1914, at this time the address is given as High Street, so it seems likely that it would have been a building in the High Street to which this was fixed, sadly no door number was given. There is also a file that records change in ownership of the Post Office in 1927 and at this point the address is given as Holly Mount 70 Sutton Road. It would imply therefore that at some point the office moved to this address but it is not clear when unfortunately. I don't know if any of that ties with what you already know of the local history.
I have tried all the sources we have here but obviously if something else does come up then I will of course let you know.
I am really pleased a new home was found for the memorial and look forward to seeing it when I next get to the National Arboretum.
Many thanks
Chris
Chris Taft
Hello Linda
We were indeed in touch in the past. I have gone through several records here but have been unable to find anything conclusive. Generally memorials were paid for by subscription from local staff so this is almost certainly the case with this one too. The Post Office gave permission but did not commission them directly. We have a few records of this permission being granted for offices around the country but sadly not Erdington. Basically blanket permission was given to sites so they did not need to contact the Post Office on each occasion. I have gone through the Post Office staff magazine for this period and there is no account in this either of the erection or dedication of this memorial. The only records I have for Erdington is of plans for the office to be extended in 1914, at this time the address is given as High Street, so it seems likely that it would have been a building in the High Street to which this was fixed, sadly no door number was given. There is also a file that records change in ownership of the Post Office in 1927 and at this point the address is given as Holly Mount 70 Sutton Road. It would imply therefore that at some point the office moved to this address but it is not clear when unfortunately. I don't know if any of that ties with what you already know of the local history.
I have tried all the sources we have here but obviously if something else does come up then I will of course let you know.
I am really pleased a new home was found for the memorial and look forward to seeing it when I next get to the National Arboretum.
Many thanks
Chris
Chris Taft
Had a ponder using my vivid imagination Lyn!
We know from Mike's research that the PO on the village green was there until at least 1924. We also know that in 1914 the village green PO probably wasn't big enough if it was thought necessary to extend it. I think the Holly Mount PO would have been near Holly Road, off Sutton Road and the village green PO would have moved there between 1924 and 1927.
Chris's email suggests the village green PO ceased to exist by 1927 (if the plaque was there it would only have been there for 5 years). Maybe the village green PO moved for several reasons: firstly inadequate accommodation. Maybe it needed better sorting facilities etc. Secondly, maybe it was affected by Sutton Road development diverting traffic around Erdington High Street. (I have a feeling this road was the predecessor to the later and wider Sutton New Road of 1938, hence the name Sutton New Road). I also wonder if the area along Sutton Road, near Holly Lane, was undergoing significant residential development sometime in the 1920s, making the PO in that part of Erdington more viable.
However, having said all that, the question is did the plaque move to Holly Mount PO?
As it was only 6-9 years since the end of WW1 and people had kindly put their hands in their pockets to pay for the memorial, I would say the answer is yes. Viv.
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We know from Mike's research that the PO on the village green was there until at least 1924. We also know that in 1914 the village green PO probably wasn't big enough if it was thought necessary to extend it. I think the Holly Mount PO would have been near Holly Road, off Sutton Road and the village green PO would have moved there between 1924 and 1927.
Chris's email suggests the village green PO ceased to exist by 1927 (if the plaque was there it would only have been there for 5 years). Maybe the village green PO moved for several reasons: firstly inadequate accommodation. Maybe it needed better sorting facilities etc. Secondly, maybe it was affected by Sutton Road development diverting traffic around Erdington High Street. (I have a feeling this road was the predecessor to the later and wider Sutton New Road of 1938, hence the name Sutton New Road). I also wonder if the area along Sutton Road, near Holly Lane, was undergoing significant residential development sometime in the 1920s, making the PO in that part of Erdington more viable.
However, having said all that, the question is did the plaque move to Holly Mount PO?
As it was only 6-9 years since the end of WW1 and people had kindly put their hands in their pockets to pay for the memorial, I would say the answer is yes. Viv.
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W
Wendy
Guest
Wow loving all the info on this thread. Viv you have done a great job on the research Lyn keeping it all together as well. So many people involved makes great reading thank you.
thanks viv i shall have to ponder on your last post tomorrow..such a lot to take in lol..
dont know about keeping it all together wend think im losing the plot...
mike thanks for that info as well..i am really hoping that i can find something out at the library next tuesday otherwise this could remain a mystery for ever..i still have a feeling the plaque started at the po at no 51 high st..
dont know about keeping it all together wend think im losing the plot...
mike thanks for that info as well..i am really hoping that i can find something out at the library next tuesday otherwise this could remain a mystery for ever..i still have a feeling the plaque started at the po at no 51 high st..
Well that fits Mike. I expect the PO disappeared nearer 1936 as that's nearer the development of Sutton New Road (1938). Another point which I'd forgotten is that the big PO/sorting office on Sutton New Road was built around the same time (1939?) as Sutton New Road. So maybe Holly Mount PO was an old PO providing a temporary arrangement until Sutton New Road was operational. (Or it could just be a red herring or maybe it was providing services which the village green PO could no longer provide due to pressure on space). All aspects well worth exploring though. Viv.
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70 Sutton road seems to have been on the corner of Holly Lane. Kellys 1924 and 1932 shows it as a private residence occupied by john wilton. this is conformed for that period by the electoral rolls. Possibly the sub post office was a franchise and the Sutton road address was the home address of the franchisee.
Now that makes more sense Mike. So I think we're most probably looking at simply a movement of the village green PO from 51 High Street to the much, much bigger PO and sorting office on Sutton New Road. From memory I think the 1930s PO building is literally across the road, although not 100% sure on that. Chances are the plaque would have moved to the new building, particularly as the 2nd WW was on the horizon. This roving plaque is taking us on a fascinating journey. If nothing else, we know a bit more about the PO and Erdington!
Like Lyn, I too am off for a ponder. Viv.
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Like Lyn, I too am off for a ponder. Viv.
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