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Where is he buried?

R

richardgrimmett

proper brummie kid
I am researching a man by the name of Thomas Thurstans who lived in Church Street, Birmingham during the first half of the 19th century. In Autumn 1858 he was taken ill and died in hospital (I think the general). He had no family and was given a paupers grave. Where would this have been, and would it have been subsequently moved? I have been googling this for some time with no luck. If anyone can offer information or advice it will be very gratefully received.

Thanks
Richard
 
Well, the General Hospital at that time was in Summer Lane. Depending on who was responsible for his burial - how do you know he was given a pauper's burial? I do know that although there are public graves in Witton, Key Hill and also Warstone Lane, none of them are actually pauper's graves. He could be buried at one of several places, including the two of those I have mentioned above, but he could also, just, have been buried at St Philips, but I would think the chance of that was slight. Personally I would try Key Hill and Warstone Lane first, and then you would need to try whichever of the local churches had burial grounds still open. St Georges was until the 1870's, and also All Saints, but I think that would be a non-starter. Witton was not open until about 1863.

Shortie
 
Hello Richard, the best I can offer is a Thomas Leviston Thurstans buried at Key Hill Cemetery in 1853 in Section A grave number 78. This may be a relative there are other Thurstans buried at Key Hill but not many.
 
Wendy: Thanks for that but I am 100% convinced that is not him. I have found his death record and have paid and am awaiting a copy from the GRO. He died in Autumn 1858.

He was a bellringer at St Martin's in the Bullring and at St Philip's, and a fellow bellringer of the day wrote: "In the Autumn of 1858 he was taken ill in the street and died in the general hospital. No one knew who he was; no one enquired about him. So it came to pass that the parish authorities buried him-no friend or relative being near."

Shortie: thanks for that. No I don't know it was a pauper's grave, I made an assumption from the above text - possibly wrong? Which parish did the general fall under? Would it have been St Mary's in Whittall Street?

thanks
Richard
 
Hi Richard - it would depend on the person making the arrangements as to where he was buried - I see this as having two options. 1) The General Hospital nearest, as you say, St Mary's would be the one, or 2) using his address, which would have meant St Phillips, but that was almost closed by then. Most church burial ground were closed by the 1850's, or at least nearing closure and St Mary's (which I had completely forgotten about) was no exception. Part of the burial ground was closed in 1848, the remainder in 1861. I have simply no idea if churches had special areas for people with little or no money, my knowledge is confined to cemeteries, but I would suggest that St Mary's is a reasonable place to look. I personally would start with Warstone and then Key Hill, and then look to St Mary's and then St Phillips. Cemeteries, being a new idea, and having the cheaper public graves available, would, I feel, be their first choice. I might be wrong, though. Please keep us informed, the information could be useful some day!

Shortie
 
Hi Richard

Don't know if you have these 2 snippets from the Northern Star & Leeds and The Era (London) newspapers referring to his bellringing?

Suzanne
 
Thanks Suzanne, that is very interesting. Perhaps the church paid for his burial? I think until some digging is done, we shall never know.

Richard, do you have his death certificate?

Shortie
 
Richard

I have just realised why I did not mention St Mary's, or even give it a thought. You are thinking that the General Hospital was the one in Steelhouse Lane? That was not built until around 1898, the old General, the first hospital in Birmingham, was in Summer Lane, near the junction with Constitution Hill. St George's would be the nearest, with St Mary's a close second. Was he a regular bell ringer at St Georges?

Shortie
 
Suzanne: thanks very much. He was recognised as a bellringing genius. Bellringing is all based on maths and the neglish style originated from maths dons from Cambridge University in the early 1600s working on group and set theory. Thurstans cracked a problem that hundreds before him over a couple of centuries had failed. His compositions of Stedman Triples remain the most popular rung by a long way. A ringer of his day wrote "no man of his time understood the theory of composition more than he did, but he jumped to conclusions which were often erroneous. In appearance he was a very broad set man about 5 feet 8 inches although not looking so tall, and in later years he had a stooping and a waddling gait. By trade he was a brass finisher and up to 1825 or thereabouts he was a quiet and respectable man. About that time there was a trades dispute resulting in a strike and through leaving his work in an unfinished state he was summoned before the magistrates who in the then existing state of the law had power to send him to prison. This they did for a month's hard labour in Warwick gaol. Lates speaking of Thurstans who had been having one of his breaks-out said: 'Ah Tom has never done any good since they made him gring his own corn'. There can be no doubt that this disgrace totally upset him and though steady and right enough at times, he would break out and act more like a madman than anything else."

SHortie: I ordered the death certificate yesterday so will hopefully have it in a a few days. Very interesting about the general and St George's. St George's has never had a proper ring of bells.

Richard
 
Richard

Thanks for the info - very interesting. How are you related to him?

Suzanne
 
Suzanne, I am a bellringer at St Martin's too and have long been interested in those who have rung there before me. We have a rich culture of stories passed down over the generations - and are fortunate that some of our predecessors have written these down.

Richard
 
Hi Richard
Did the death certificate tell us anything?
Incidentally, they have an index of the Warwick gaol registers now. Haven't checked it myself, but when I enquired a few years ago I was told that there was no reference to anyone called Thurstans / Thrustance etc being in the goal at around that time
All very mysterious, unless you've cracked it now

CJP
 
Hi Richard

Did you ever manage to locate Thomas Thurstans burial place?
I have found this one at Warstone Lane Cemetery - Thomas Thurstans buried 1858 Register number 6729

Regards
Suzanne
 
Richard, Thomas Thurstans is buried in section F grave number 618.

The burial registers for Warstone Lane Cemetery are held at Handsworth Cemetery. Central Library have the indexes on microfiche.
 
Wendy, thank you for that. I followed up on this yesterday and went to Handsworth Cemetry. The computer printout that they gave me indicated section F plot 618 as you said, but with a '?ERROR' printed next to it. I then went down to Warstone Lane to take a look but could see no evidence. Rose, at Handsworth cemetry, said she will look further and send me an email soon.

Afterwards I popped into the Central Library and had a look at the Cemetry Index. I couldn't find him, or the 6729 entry, under section F, but eventually did find him in section T and the dates match - I know he died on August 18th and the burial is on the 20th. So I am fairly confident this is him. The library doesn't seem to hold the cross reference from the index to the plot numbers so I am guessing I will need to go back to Handsworth and ask to inspect the original books. I suspect the answer may be T618 rather than F618 but who knows.

I went back to Warstone Lane after visiting the library and noted that section T does not have a single headstone (unlike all other parts of the cemetry) and is at the north western corner adjacent to Icknield Street. That seems to make sense, because the handed down stories say he was buried in a pauper's grave and I would have thought those would be furthest from the town end, and paper's graves would presumably not have had many if any headstones?

Am I right in thinking there is another book cross referencing the index entries to plot numbers, and that it will be at Handsworth? I was also given a map of the plots for F section and am hoping there is one for the T section.

Richard
 
Hi Richard,

There are photographs showing part of SectionT absolutely full of headstones in 1953. The Council laid them down and grassed the over when they took over the place - it's too much hassle for the men whizzing around on motor mowers if the cemetery is full of headstone, apparantly!

The Friends of Key Hill and Warstone lane Cemeteries will be present in Warstone Lane, tomorrow, Sat 10th - it's their annual Open day.
We have now printed oit all the names and graves, so you can look them up quite easily on the day, and we will have the Section maps on hand as well.

Also the BMSGH will be present to do look ups on the computer, which will be able to access other persons in the grave, and also bring up a photogragh of the Burial register entry.
You can normally obtain these from the BMSGH by emailing yh_uci@btyinternet.com for a small fee, if you cannot pop into Warstone Lane tomorrow.

There is also a regular monthly guided tour on Sunday 12-2, when the look up bpooks and section plans will also be available for perusal.
 
That's very interesting Brian. I have had a little more progress today and have photographed the relevant entry in the Burial register which certainly shows he was interred in plot 618. The problem now is that I have also inspected the plans for section T and there isn't a plot 618 in it. The burial register has a column for plot number and an adjacent column for Place of interment, but the latter column does not appear to have a direct relationship to the A-T sections on either the map or the cemetry index.

Tomorrow seems like a fantastic opportunity to try and understand it all better, and hopefully identify the grave location, so I shall definitely be there!

Best Wishes
Richard
 
Hope you have better luck tomorrow Richard as I am sure you will get help tomorrow...Sorry I can't be there still in Wales. I hope the day goes well :)
 
Richard, come and see Richard Beardall on the Friends stand, and have a word with the BMSGH together.
F618 is certainly a grave - could just be the writings pretty bad in the Registers, and because they are really the cash books, not all grave numbers are shown, which is a nuisance in WL. There must have have been other Registers - either the C of E kept them, or BCC slung them!

Please be patient tomorrow - it lookis like there may only be 3 Friends there at present to man the whole show!
 
Hi Richard

As per your IM to me, I have re-attached the 2 newspaper clippings to Post #7

Regards
Suzanne
 
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