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Villa Cross

Richard McNeill. Thanks. That's great. Narrows the earliest limit of the date range to 1876.
Post #65 has a tram advert stating the Lozells line will open 1st October 1885 and trams will run every fifteen minutes. This new line is shown on an 1888 ordinance survey map with double tramways at Villa Cross. On the photo there is only a single tramway. Edward W Bradbury landlord of VCI at the date 30/10/82
Date range narrowed. 1876 to 1885

Should also mention here that in some earlier posts I referred to the cab stand on the right of the inn when I should have said cabman's rest (cabbies rest) which is the 'summer house' style building.

Some long shots worth a mention. In the photo the pavement on the left side of Heathfield Road not paved with wood or stone; when was it paved with wood or stone? The Inn has a clock; when did it disappear?
 
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A lot of roadwork was approved in 1879. Don’t know if this helps. Viv.
 

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Thanks Vivienne14. Every bit of evidence can be a part of the jigsaw.
Although I did pay too much attention to the detailed plans for tramways as given by the tram company. The company may have wished to build them in Barker Street and Heathfield Road but the local boards said, no! I have recently read a newspaper report of an Aston Local Board meeting where they decided not to allow any more tramways, but unfortunately I forgot to save it. A lesson well-learned; save everything.

Today I received a further email from Professor Carl Chinn concerning the cabman's rest shown in the photo. God bless him, he doesn't know me from Adam, but took the time out of his busy schedule to help us. I quote in full:
Hello David,
Sorry for the delay in replying to you but I am working flat out on writing a new book and have a tight deadline to keep so I'm struggling to keep up with anything else.
In your response to your questions, I have a Kelly's Directory for 1882 which is where the information I sent you is from. The previous directory I have is for 1873.
Directories for the intervening years will be in the Library of Birmingham, unfortunately closed at present.
I was referring to the cabbie's rest stand as in 1882, Alfred Harper, cab proprietor was given as at 239 Lozells Road, premises which were named as (Aston Villa) and which was next to the Villa Cross inn.
Best wishes
Carl

This is another lead to follow up. If anyone has intervening years directories, 1874 - 1881, I'd be most grateful if you would kindly try to find out when the cabbie's rest, mentioned above, first appears in them. This may prove to be a vital piece of information that narrows the date range during which the photo must have been taken. Fingers crossed.

Current date range 1876 -1885.
 
Alfred Harper is first listed in the 1879 Post Office directory, not being there in the 1878 edition. It should be noted that the date is the publication date, and was likely to refer to the year before. The Post Office directory was published by a firm owned by Mr Kelly, but was not named Kellys directory till 1880
 
Villa Cross Inn and neighbouring cab proprietor: information from Kelly's Directories for Birmingham: 1874, 1876, 1878, 1879, 1880, 1882 & 1884.

1874 & 1876 Charles Sylvester Young, Commercial Traveller (Aston Villa); next to Villa Cross Inn (no house number) on north side of Lozells road:

1878 No cab proprietor next to Villa Cross Inn and no one listed next to the Villa Cross Inn with '(Aston Villa)' after their name.

1879 Charles Harper, cab proprietor (Aston Villa); next to Villa Cross Inn (no house number) on north side of Lozells road.

1880 & 1882 Alfred Harper, cab proprietor (Aston Villa) at No.239 Lozells Road on the north side of Road next to Villa Cross Inn.

1884 James Alfred Harper, Fly Master* at No.239 Lozells Road on the north side of Road next to Villa Cross Inn.

* Apparently a 'Fly Master' was an alternative form for 'Fly Proprietor:' someone who owned a fleet of 'Fly Carriages'. A 'Fly Carriage' was single horse drawn covered light carriage such as a Hansom Cab. (see: https://www.familyresearcher.co.uk/glossary/Dictionary-of-Old-Occupations-jobs-beginning-F4.html).

Hope this helps.
 
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Richard
Thank you for correction as to which Harper was present in 1879 edition. Have corrected my post
 
Just checking that I’m not losing track of what we’re checking for here. The present day lamp post in these two Streetview images must be the position of the one we’re discussing. It’s directly opposite the Villa Cross Inn on Heathfield Road. In my experience of looking at photos etc, later replacements of old lamp posts tend to be replaced in the same spot. Can anyone confirm this is the position of the AV lamp we’re looking at and also if lamp posts tend to be in the same spot as their predecessors? Thanks. Viv.6DA1E055-57C2-4C55-B275-1842BEBABAC1.jpegD350F3EE-2660-4ACE-9CB3-5624E53A1F3D.jpeg
 
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Firstly, thank you all for contributing. Much appreciated.

Hi, Richard McNeill. That's great again. Very detailed information that covers the time span we're looking at.

The problem with the directory entries, as far as the cabman's rest in concerned, is that it is not explicitly mentioned. From what Professor Chinn wrote I had assumed that it would be. However, as there was no cab proprietor behind the Villa Cross Inn until 1879, it seems unlikely that there would have been a cabman's rest there before 1879. Tentatively, I suggest the new date range is 1879 - 1885. (From later photos of Villa Cross we can see the cabbie's rest was in the same position in 1901 and remained there until it was moved, and propped up on bricks in front of the Villa Cross Hotel.

Dates of the first tramways up to Villa Cross from Heathfield Road, Villa Road, Lozells Road and Barker Street.

Resource Details - Birmingham Images The lamp shown on the left hand side of the above photo maybe the original Founders Lamp of Aston Villa Football Club. I desperately want to find out if it is, :), or if it isn't, :(. To do so I need: an accurate date for when the photo was taken; and, the...
birminghamhistory.co.uk
Post #9 )

Hi, Vivienne 14. What I started out to prove or disprove is described in post #24, based on the reasons given in post #52. We are trying to date the photo as accurately as possible, and therefore be able to, eventually, determine whether the lamp shown on the left-hand-side of the photo is exactly the same one that was there on the 21st of November 1874. If it is, then it is, almost certainly, the original Founders Lamp of Aston Villa FC. If the original Founders Lamp had been replaced by the time the photo was taken, then even if the new lamp was in the same position as the original, it would not hold the same significance. The date of the photo, in any case, is very important to me, because the photo is the closest one can get to the 'founding' event, and the more accurately dated the photo is, the closer we are.

Imagine you knew without question that Rembrandt had painted a portrait of a beloved and famous ancestor of yours and that it had been lost. Then one day a beautiful portrait of the ancestor is found. But is it by Rembrandt, or is it a later copy? The original founders lamp is my Rembrandt.

I'll own up to an obsession about the founders lamp. I loved the story when I first read it. Then in 2014 I plucked up courage to suggest to AVFC what I had thought for a long time; that there should be a Founders Lamp at Villa Park to celebrate that meeting of the four young men under a gas light at the top of Heathfield Road at Villa Cross. The owner at that time, Randy Learner, loved the idea and so the Founders Lamp was erected in front of the Holte Suite, at the foot of the Holte End, as part of the club's 140th anniversary celebrations. But I had never dreamed that there existed an actual photograph of the original lamp. Then in December last year I stumbled across the photo. It was dated c1890, and on the left-hand-side at the top of Heathfield Road, at Villa Cross, just as described by Jack Hughes, was ….. a lamp. Instantly, mind blown.

By the way, post #97 The cab proprietors house/carriage works in 1914 clearly shows the same rough footpath as shown in the ENTIRE photo. No proper stone/wood paving on Heathfield Road. So that line of investigation is closed.

I am so grateful to everyone who has contributed. We started with c1890. We're now at 1879 -1885. Wouldn't it be fantastic to know the exact year. Never say never. You never know …
 
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Of course I realise that any replacement lamp wouldn’t have the same significance ! I was simply asking if this is the position because we might be able to dig out any older images showing the original lamp in position on Heathfield Road, ie a better image of the position than any previous images so far discussed. That’s all.

Although the image in post #97 isa later image, the lamp would have been a bit further to the right of the cab proprietors cottage. Maybe there are other images out there that are further to the right that show the lamp.

Viv.
 
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Oh I see. Sorry about that. It's really hard to tell, isn't it? There's been so many changes there that I couldn't say for sure. But, of course, if there are any earlier photos that can be found, it would be tremendous.
 
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Well, well! These clips 10 April 1880. And Mr Graham is already under scrutiny for his night soil dealings and for the red granite scandal. It appears that neither Mr Graham nor the board took it too seriously. Mr Graham seconded the motion for an enquiry into the red granite paving even though it was against himself, and the board laughed. As for the night soil report, I love this sentence: The bargain had been made between Mr Graham and himself and Mr Graham had paid the price asked.

Based on this evidence we can say that the photo can now be dated not later that 1885 (tramway lines) and not before the red granite was laid, which could be as late as 1880, but could be earlier. It's a small change but one which increases the probability of an earlier date for the photo than before. 1879 assumes the cabman's rest appeared the same year that a cab proprietor moved into Aston Villa next to the Villa Cross Inn. W Graham premises mean the photo can't have been taken before 1876.

Current time span still 1879 - 1885
 
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Vivienne14 said:
And for those interested in the Wesleyan Chapel connection already mentioned, it’s explained here in this extracted contribution by Whiskeypapa in the Aston Lower Grounds thread :

In 1874 a new sports club had been founded by the Villa Cross Wesleyan Chapel Cricket Club in Birmingham whose members yearned for some sporting activity in the winter. The first sporting event played by the new club was a rugby match against Aston Brook St Mary's Rugby Club, followed the next week by a football match. It was decided that football was the way forward. The team prospered and took on the lease of grounds at Wellington Road, Perry Barr. The club's management instigated the football league and of course the renamed Aston Villa was a founding member. By the end of the century they had won three FA cup finals and 5 league finals. This success enabled the club to buy its own ground and as the site of Mr Quilters enterprise was available it was purchased outright in 1897, the year the club won both the FA Cup and the League.

Extracted from https://birminghamhistory.co.uk/forum/index.php?threads/aston-lower-grounds.15945/page-
Click to expand...
 
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