O
O.C.
Guest
Entrance to corridor Victoria Court Birmingham 100 years ago (same today)
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HI CROM ,
WHY DID THEY BUILD ANOTHER COURT AROUND THE CORNER ,
FROM THE LOVELY VICTORIA COURTS
I WAS UP AT THAT COURT AFEW TIMES GIVING EVIDENCE AGAIST SOME CRIMMIMALS,
WHOM STAGE A ROBBERY AT ASDA LAST YEAR AND I WENT BEHIND A SCREEN TO KEEP MY IDENITY ANNM;;
THE COURT ROOMS ARE TREMOUS
DO YOU KNOW IF THERE WAS A SENTENCE OF HANGING GIVEN OUT THERE
AT ANY TIME , IN YEARS GONE BYE. ? .
AM I RIGHT IN SAYING RUTH ELLIS WAS THE LAST LADY TO BE HUNG .
WAS IT A B,HAM COURT OR A LONDON ONE AND AT WINSON GREEN ,
WHY DID THEY BUILD ANOTHER COURT AROUND THE CORNER ,
FROM THE LOVELY VICTORIA COURTS
I WAS UP AT THAT COURT AFEW TIMES GIVING EVIDENCE AGAIST SOME CRIMMIMALS,
WHOM STAGE A ROBBERY AT ASDA LAST YEAR AND I WENT BEHIND A SCREEN TO KEEP MY IDENITY ANNM;;
THE COURT ROOMS ARE TREMOUS
DO YOU KNOW IF THERE WAS A SENTENCE OF HANGING GIVEN OUT THERE
AT ANY TIME , IN YEARS GONE BYE. ? .
AM I RIGHT IN SAYING RUTH ELLIS WAS THE LAST LADY TO BE HUNG .
WAS IT A B,HAM COURT OR A LONDON ONE AND AT WINSON GREEN ,
Oisin
gone but not forgotten
Yep, that's a fantastic piece of architecture. I never cease to be amazed by the beauty of the building every time I'm taken go there. It certainly would be a great loss if this building was demolished for the normal glass and concrete.
Astonian,
The Victoria Courts are Magistrate court, where you're tried by beaks magistrates; The Queen Elizabeth Courts are Crown courts for more serious offences, where you're tried by a judge and jury. In my view, although the latter cannot possibly compete with the architecture of the Victoria Courts, for a recent construction, they haven't made too bad a job of it... from the outside anyway; I haven't seen the inside... yet!
p.s. Have you ever been in the tiled tunnel leading from Steelhouse Lane nick to the Victoria Law Courts? It ain't half damp. :-[
Astonian,
The Victoria Courts are Magistrate court, where you're tried by beaks magistrates; The Queen Elizabeth Courts are Crown courts for more serious offences, where you're tried by a judge and jury. In my view, although the latter cannot possibly compete with the architecture of the Victoria Courts, for a recent construction, they haven't made too bad a job of it... from the outside anyway; I haven't seen the inside... yet!
p.s. Have you ever been in the tiled tunnel leading from Steelhouse Lane nick to the Victoria Law Courts? It ain't half damp. :-[
HI THERE OSIN ,
FIRST OF ALL I GOT TO SAY NO I HAVE NOT BEEN DOWN THERE ,
SECONDLY I HAVE NOT BEEN INSIDE THAT NEW ONE EITHER , I,VE ONLY SEEN IT FROM OUTSIDE
I DON,T SURPOSE IT COULD NOT BE PATCH ON THE OLD COURTS ,
I AM TOLD IN DETAIL OF THE PASSAGES AND CORRIDORS OF THE OLD COURTS ,
WHICH RUNS INTO A MAZE OF PASSAGES FROM THE COURTS AROUND TO THE NICK OF STEEL HOUSE LANE
AND IT I THINK I WAS TOLD IT HOLDS ABOUT 350 PRISONERS , I CANNOT REMEMBER THE EXCACT NUMBER ,
AND THEY SAY IT GRIM , IT WOULD BE A CRIME OF THE CENTRURY IF THEY SOLD IT OFF
FIRST OF ALL I GOT TO SAY NO I HAVE NOT BEEN DOWN THERE ,
SECONDLY I HAVE NOT BEEN INSIDE THAT NEW ONE EITHER , I,VE ONLY SEEN IT FROM OUTSIDE
I DON,T SURPOSE IT COULD NOT BE PATCH ON THE OLD COURTS ,
I AM TOLD IN DETAIL OF THE PASSAGES AND CORRIDORS OF THE OLD COURTS ,
WHICH RUNS INTO A MAZE OF PASSAGES FROM THE COURTS AROUND TO THE NICK OF STEEL HOUSE LANE
AND IT I THINK I WAS TOLD IT HOLDS ABOUT 350 PRISONERS , I CANNOT REMEMBER THE EXCACT NUMBER ,
AND THEY SAY IT GRIM , IT WOULD BE A CRIME OF THE CENTRURY IF THEY SOLD IT OFF
O
O.C.
Guest
Astonian the Law Courts is a spectacular building here is another photo from a different angle
HI CROMIE MY OLD MATE ,
I HOPE YOU ARE WELL AS IT LEAVES ME THE SAME ,
MANY THANKS FOR THR PIC , I WILL DOWN LOAD IT IF YOU CAN GET ANY MORE I WOULD BE APPRECIATED
DO YOU KNOW OF ANY HANGING CASES THAT WAS SERVED THERE ,
AND IF SO COULD YOU TELL US WHOM WAS THE LAST PERSON ,
WAS RUTH ELLIS THE LAST LADY TO BE HUNG
AND WAS IT AT WINSON GREEN PRISON
I BELIEVE JUDGE MICHAEL ARGRYLE THE SENIOR QUARTER SESSIONS JUDGE
WAS THE MAIN MAN THERE ON THE CIRCUIT OF JUDGES
WHOM WAS A VERY SEVERE MAN HANDING OUT LONG TERM SENTENCES
ANY BODY WHOM APPEARED BEFORE HIM WAS SENT DOWN ,
SPEAK TO YOU SOON ,, ASTONIAN,;;;;
I HOPE YOU ARE WELL AS IT LEAVES ME THE SAME ,
MANY THANKS FOR THR PIC , I WILL DOWN LOAD IT IF YOU CAN GET ANY MORE I WOULD BE APPRECIATED
DO YOU KNOW OF ANY HANGING CASES THAT WAS SERVED THERE ,
AND IF SO COULD YOU TELL US WHOM WAS THE LAST PERSON ,
WAS RUTH ELLIS THE LAST LADY TO BE HUNG
AND WAS IT AT WINSON GREEN PRISON
I BELIEVE JUDGE MICHAEL ARGRYLE THE SENIOR QUARTER SESSIONS JUDGE
WAS THE MAIN MAN THERE ON THE CIRCUIT OF JUDGES
WHOM WAS A VERY SEVERE MAN HANDING OUT LONG TERM SENTENCES
ANY BODY WHOM APPEARED BEFORE HIM WAS SENT DOWN ,
SPEAK TO YOU SOON ,, ASTONIAN,;;;;
sylviasayers
master brummie
I agree the Victoria Law Court building is splendid, I have been in there a few times but never as a criminal. The new court is named the Queen Elizabeth II Law Courts, and I was called for Jury Service there about 10 years ago, but wasn't called to serve on a jury. The waiting around every day for 3 weeks was very tiring, hope I'm not called again.
O
O.C.
Guest
Astonian, Ruth Ellis was tried and sentenced at the Old Bailey London O0
sylviasayers
master brummie
Ruth Ellis was also the last woman to be hanged in England.
jennyann
Gone but not forgotten. R.I.P.
Aren't the Victoria Law Courts a listed heritage building? I have been inside and what I saw still stays in my memory. It is so well built and full of so many interesting things. I think the security is pretty stiff now after one of the door attendents was murdered a few years ago. Do they have group Tours?
When the tram stops were moved from the Weslyan & General Assurance area down to the General Hospital, that must have been when I went to school in town in the early l950's, I remember seeing the judges dressed in their full regalia, ermine trimmed red gowns, full wigs for High Court Judges,, walking out of part of the Steelhouse Lane Police Station and round the corner to the Courts. I don't suppose they fancied going through the tunnel where the crims went. It was quite a sight.
When the tram stops were moved from the Weslyan & General Assurance area down to the General Hospital, that must have been when I went to school in town in the early l950's, I remember seeing the judges dressed in their full regalia, ermine trimmed red gowns, full wigs for High Court Judges,, walking out of part of the Steelhouse Lane Police Station and round the corner to the Courts. I don't suppose they fancied going through the tunnel where the crims went. It was quite a sight.
Peter Walker
gone but not forgotten
The Victoria Law Courts must be as outstanding architecturally as the Town Hall - more so, perhaps, because they were designed for their purpose, whereas the Town Hall was really a copy of a Roman Temple. Yes, the Law Courts are as fine as St Pancras Hotel and Prudential Assurance buildings in London and Waterhouse's Manchester Town Hall. But some of the remaining Victorian school buildings in Birmingham are wonderful places, too.
In reply to Jennyann's post about the tram stops. They remained in use until the last tram ran out to Erdington about 10.45 am on Saturday. I seem to remember that, whereas the trams just reversed at the terminus by the Gaumont picture house, the buses had to turn a loop via Loveday St, and then turned into Steelhouse Lane out of either Weaman St of Whittall St - I can't remember which. They started to run from 11.00 am on that day.
Now a bit of trivia about Ruth Ellis. After I moved to London in 1959, I lived for several months in a lovely bed-sit near Hampstead Heath, and my local pub was the Magdala. Not that I ever used it, as I was desperately saving money to get married the following Easter, but I did sense that it had a bad 'buzz' about it, from the way people talked about it. A few years ago I did a tour with a group from the Pub History Society, and we visited this place, which is still quite a nice pub, and we were shown the shrapnel marks where poor Ruth Ellis shot her ex-lover outside the front door. I never knew that when I lived so close, and only four years after the event.
Peter
Peter
In reply to Jennyann's post about the tram stops. They remained in use until the last tram ran out to Erdington about 10.45 am on Saturday. I seem to remember that, whereas the trams just reversed at the terminus by the Gaumont picture house, the buses had to turn a loop via Loveday St, and then turned into Steelhouse Lane out of either Weaman St of Whittall St - I can't remember which. They started to run from 11.00 am on that day.
Now a bit of trivia about Ruth Ellis. After I moved to London in 1959, I lived for several months in a lovely bed-sit near Hampstead Heath, and my local pub was the Magdala. Not that I ever used it, as I was desperately saving money to get married the following Easter, but I did sense that it had a bad 'buzz' about it, from the way people talked about it. A few years ago I did a tour with a group from the Pub History Society, and we visited this place, which is still quite a nice pub, and we were shown the shrapnel marks where poor Ruth Ellis shot her ex-lover outside the front door. I never knew that when I lived so close, and only four years after the event.
Peter
Peter
A.Willoughby
master brummie
In the late fifties the layout within the precincts of the court were that the two courts facing one, as you entered, were used by lay magistrates generally. To the right of the entrance and partly out of sight was the court used by the Stipendiary magistrate, Mr. Milward, a paid magistrate of many years standing. There were two courts behind the former two (down the passage that appears in the earlier photograph) These were used for Courts of Session and Assize.
On a Monday morning there was one Irish policeman who would be the court gaoler for the magistrates.
He would bring up all the various drunks arrested since the Saturday prior and line them up in the dock.
There could be any up to fifteen or more and it was like a conveyor belt of sentencing. He would put them order of his script and then read out their names, the offence with which charged i.e. Drunk or drunk and disorderly (outlining briefly, the act so committed to be disorderly in each case, and location. The clerk would ask each one briefly for the plea - Guilty and then the Irish policeman would go into the set lines of how many convictions each had for drunkenness if it applied and adding, I am sure his own words, that all were sorry for taking the time of the court. For the simple drunks the fine varied between 5 shilling and ten shillings according to antecedence, to £1 to £2 for the disorderly ones .
On the fines being being levied the officer would add that (a) the fine would be paid, if the man had sufficient funds in his property or without a by your leave to the accused, if he did not have the funds, apply for seven days to pay. They then all left the court room en masse to settle their dues
Justice was swift and sure in those cases and consider today all the people who would complain of that form of conveyor belt justice.
Will.
On a Monday morning there was one Irish policeman who would be the court gaoler for the magistrates.
He would bring up all the various drunks arrested since the Saturday prior and line them up in the dock.
There could be any up to fifteen or more and it was like a conveyor belt of sentencing. He would put them order of his script and then read out their names, the offence with which charged i.e. Drunk or drunk and disorderly (outlining briefly, the act so committed to be disorderly in each case, and location. The clerk would ask each one briefly for the plea - Guilty and then the Irish policeman would go into the set lines of how many convictions each had for drunkenness if it applied and adding, I am sure his own words, that all were sorry for taking the time of the court. For the simple drunks the fine varied between 5 shilling and ten shillings according to antecedence, to £1 to £2 for the disorderly ones .
On the fines being being levied the officer would add that (a) the fine would be paid, if the man had sufficient funds in his property or without a by your leave to the accused, if he did not have the funds, apply for seven days to pay. They then all left the court room en masse to settle their dues
Justice was swift and sure in those cases and consider today all the people who would complain of that form of conveyor belt justice.
Will.
O
O.C.
Guest
If you go through all the magic tunnels under the Law Courts you came out into the Judges Library (Judges Chambers)and in their they kept all the stuff that had been confiscated so that they could read ( but an hour or so before the had just sentenced someone for possesing it) but they had to know what was right or Wrong   ...Did'nt they.....and if anyone knows they had a great pair of library steps (are they still their?or been flogged)
TOP OF THE MORNIN TO YOU CROMIE AND INSPECTOR WILL,
DO ANY OF YOU TWO RECALL IN THE LATE FORTIES
OR THE VERY EARLY FIFTIES ,AS I DO RECALL AN INCIDENTENT REGARDING
A GROUP OF POLICE OFFICIERS FROM STEEL HOUSE LANE ,
I THINK IT WAS ABOUT FOUR OF THEM , GOING ACROSS THE ROAD ,FROM STEEL HOUSE LANE NICK
AND BREAKING INTO A SMALL GUN SHOP AND ROBBING WEAPONS , FROM IT ,
THEY WAS ACTUALY CAUGHT ON THE JOB ,
IF YOU CAN CAST YOUR MIND BACK TO THEM DAYS THERE WAS LITTLE GUN MAKERS SHOPS OPPERSITE THE NICK
DO ANY OF YOU TWO RECALL IN THE LATE FORTIES
OR THE VERY EARLY FIFTIES ,AS I DO RECALL AN INCIDENTENT REGARDING
A GROUP OF POLICE OFFICIERS FROM STEEL HOUSE LANE ,
I THINK IT WAS ABOUT FOUR OF THEM , GOING ACROSS THE ROAD ,FROM STEEL HOUSE LANE NICK
AND BREAKING INTO A SMALL GUN SHOP AND ROBBING WEAPONS , FROM IT ,
THEY WAS ACTUALY CAUGHT ON THE JOB ,
IF YOU CAN CAST YOUR MIND BACK TO THEM DAYS THERE WAS LITTLE GUN MAKERS SHOPS OPPERSITE THE NICK
A.Willoughby
master brummie
A little before my time Astonian.  I came on the scene, so to say, middle to late fifties.
I vaguely recall a group of renegades who were committing prolific burglaries on the Coventry Road side of the City.  They were using copied keys to gain entrance.
At the time there was a well known song in the charts by a female singer(whose name escapes me) "Softly, Softly turn the key".
Became a bit of a hit with the local rogues when officers passed...
Will.
I vaguely recall a group of renegades who were committing prolific burglaries on the Coventry Road side of the City.  They were using copied keys to gain entrance.
At the time there was a well known song in the charts by a female singer(whose name escapes me) "Softly, Softly turn the key".
Became a bit of a hit with the local rogues when officers passed...
Will.
HI WILL
THIS INFORMATION WAS PUBLISHED IN THE SUNDAY MERCURY
AT THE TIME OF IT HAPPENING ; IT WAS ACROSS THE ROAD FACING STEEL HOUSE LANE ,
IN THOSE DAYS THE LITTLE GUN MAKERS WAS ONLY VERY SMALL SHOPS
I REMEMBER THEM VERY WELL . , BEING POLICE OFFICIERS NO ONE WOULD HAVE SUSPECTED THEM
BUT IF I REMEMBER NOW , THEY WAS SEEN BY SOME-ONE AND IT W3AS REPORTED ,
AND THATS HOW THEY GOT CAUGHT ,
WILL, DO YOU KNOW WHEN KEYON ,STREET WAS DEMOLISHED , ? .
best wishes ,;; astonian ;;;
THIS INFORMATION WAS PUBLISHED IN THE SUNDAY MERCURY
AT THE TIME OF IT HAPPENING ; IT WAS ACROSS THE ROAD FACING STEEL HOUSE LANE ,
IN THOSE DAYS THE LITTLE GUN MAKERS WAS ONLY VERY SMALL SHOPS
I REMEMBER THEM VERY WELL . , BEING POLICE OFFICIERS NO ONE WOULD HAVE SUSPECTED THEM
BUT IF I REMEMBER NOW , THEY WAS SEEN BY SOME-ONE AND IT W3AS REPORTED ,
AND THATS HOW THEY GOT CAUGHT ,
WILL, DO YOU KNOW WHEN KEYON ,STREET WAS DEMOLISHED , ? .
best wishes ,;; astonian ;;;
sylviasayers
master brummie
Will, the singer of "Softly, Softly" was Ruby Murray.
A.Willoughby
master brummie
Sylvia - Thanks for re-wiring these grey cells. Quite right - Ruby Murray.
Sorry Astonian. Lost track with Kenyon Street though I was stationed there from 1958 to 1960. when I posted out I never went back and lost touch with all who were there.
Even had I done so, with the evidence of not recallling Ruby Murray, then I would doubt if a lot of credence could be placed on me.........
Will.
Sorry Astonian. Lost track with Kenyon Street though I was stationed there from 1958 to 1960. when I posted out I never went back and lost touch with all who were there.
Even had I done so, with the evidence of not recallling Ruby Murray, then I would doubt if a lot of credence could be placed on me.........
Will.
O
O.C.
Guest
Astonian what has Kenyon Street got to do with Steelhouse lane or the Law Courts... Kenyon Street is at the bottom of Livery St (and you know how long that is) The Chief Constables office in the war got Bombed and that was in Newton Street (next to the nick)
cromwell
when i asked about kenyon street to our friend Will ,
regarding kenyon street , the reason being , did he know of an officier in C I D .
By the name of baumber ,,
Bcause this bloke after years of service at kenyon street ,
Became chief inspector of police at the central steel house lane , and the law courts
And he was driven around in a ford zyther mark four .
thats the connection on your to your thread
and i am fully aware of the distance from the little nick of kenyon st
may be officier WILL joined years later , after baumber,s time , ? .
when i asked about kenyon street to our friend Will ,
regarding kenyon street , the reason being , did he know of an officier in C I D .
By the name of baumber ,,
Bcause this bloke after years of service at kenyon street ,
Became chief inspector of police at the central steel house lane , and the law courts
And he was driven around in a ford zyther mark four .
thats the connection on your to your thread
and i am fully aware of the distance from the little nick of kenyon st
may be officier WILL joined years later , after baumber,s time , ? .
M
mike-g
Guest
Gerry Baumber was a Chief Super at Steelhouse Lane ( C.I.D. ) I think
F
Frantic
Guest
I remember the hours that I spent there during the "Birmingham six" IRA trial, searching smelly bodies all day, and guarding the corridor that the Judges chambers were in. I was so bored, that one day I went out and bought a book to read. It happened to be "The Moon's a Balloon" by David Niven, so I was in fits of laughter one day when 'His Lordship' came along the corridor. He asked to see what I was reading, and told me a few days later that he had purchased the book himself as "You seemed to be having so much fun reading it".
One night when I was guarding the road barriers in Steelhouse Lane, the temperature went from 4C to minus 8C in about half an hour. Two women were walking down Steelhouse Lane and I heard one say to the other "That poor man must be frozen standing there ". I shouted across "Yer right there Mother". It was my Mom and sister-in-law coming home from their keep-fit class. The things that you would do for a bit of overtime.
One night when I was guarding the road barriers in Steelhouse Lane, the temperature went from 4C to minus 8C in about half an hour. Two women were walking down Steelhouse Lane and I heard one say to the other "That poor man must be frozen standing there ". I shouted across "Yer right there Mother". It was my Mom and sister-in-law coming home from their keep-fit class. The things that you would do for a bit of overtime.
