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Thomas Green, Harborne

S

Stephen Keely

knowlegable brummie
Hello, I wondered if anyone knows anything about a Thomas Green who was married to a Hannah who had a daughter called Jane Green. Jane was baptised on 21 January 1787 at St Peter Harborne and died young about 1828. I have information about Jane but would like to know who Thomas and Hannah were. When born and died. Occupation etc, even who their parents were. I seem to have hit a brick wall.
 
Very difficult to be certain about things that early and Green is not an uncommon name unfortunately. There is little to corroborate what you find out.

There is a marriage listed as Harborne for a Thomas Green & a Hannah Smith, 17 Dec 1769. Thomas is listed as a Nailer. It's probable that this is your Thomas and Hannah, the first Green child in Harborne with parents Thomas & Hannah appears to be 1770.

But just to emphasise how tricky it can be there are 5 marriages for a Thomas Green in Harborne between 1767 - 1777. Matching any death or birth you find to the correct Thomas Green would be nigh on impossible.
 
There is a burial for a Thomas Green at Harborne in 1821, lists his age at 76, which would put his birth about 1745. There's another in 1828, age again 76 but would put birth 1752, probably a little late.

There is also a burial for a Hannah Green in 1818, age 70 meaning birth about 1748.

However the burial for Thomas Green could be for any of those I mentioned previously and the one for Hannah could be some other Hannah that married a Green. And you're relying on the ages being correct.
 
And I'm trying to make a liar of myself, there's a baptism for a Thomas Green in Harborne in 1745, son of James & Anne.

Thomas & Hannah name their first child James.
 
Hello Stephen, I agree with the comments made by MWS about the challenges with a common surname such as Green. However, if you have a look at https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/details/K8C3-NFH you will find that at least two others are working on this family. They place Hannah as one of 13 children of Thomas Green and Hannah. Furthermore they suggest that Hannah only lived to 14 years old and died in Birmingham 25 October 1799. I cannot vouch for the accuracy of this putative family unit, but you would be able to communicate with the two contributors and share notes.
Jason
 
MWS said:
Very difficult to be certain about things that early and Green is not an uncommon name unfortunately. There is little to corroborate what you find out.

There is a marriage listed as Harborne for a Thomas Green & a Hannah Smith, 17 Dec 1769. Thomas is listed as a Nailer. It's probable that this is your Thomas and Hannah, the first Green child in Harborne with parents Thomas & Hannah appears to be 1770.

But just to emphasise how tricky it can be there are 5 marriages for a Thomas Green in Harborne between 1767 - 1777. Matching any death or birth you find to the correct Thomas Green would be nigh on impossible.
Click to expand...
Thank you very much MWS for kindly looking up that information for me. The fact that he is listed as a nailer is very helpful and interesting. May I ask were their any ages given for Thomas and Hannah on the marriage record? Or names of parents? Thanks again for your help.
MWS said:
Very difficult to be certain about things that early and Green is not an uncommon name unfortunately. There is little to corroborate what you find out.

There is a marriage listed as Harborne for a Thomas Green & a Hannah Smith, 17 Dec 1769. Thomas is listed as a Nailer. It's probable that this is your Thomas and Hannah, the first Green child in Harborne with parents Thomas & Hannah appears to be 1770.

But just to emphasise how tricky it can be there are 5 marriages for a Thomas Green in Harborne between 1767 - 1777. Matching any death or birth you find to the correct Thomas Green would be nigh on impossible.
Click to expand...
 
MWS said:
There is a burial for a Thomas Green at Harborne in 1821, lists his age at 76, which would put his birth about 1745. There's another in 1828, age again 76 but would put birth 1752, probably a little late.

There is also a burial for a Hannah Green in 1818, age 70 meaning birth about 1748.

However the burial for Thomas Green could be for any of those I mentioned previously and the one for Hannah could be some other Hannah that married a Green. And you're relying on the ages being correct.
Click to expand...
Thanks again MWS. Very much appreciated.
 
Jason Ellis said:
Hello Stephen, I agree with the comments made by MWS about the challenges with a common surname such as Green. However, if you have a look at https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/details/K8C3-NFH you will find that at least two others are working on this family. They place Hannah as one of 13 children of Thomas Green and Hannah. Furthermore they suggest that Hannah only lived to 14 years old and died in Birmingham 25 October 1799. I cannot vouch for the accuracy of this putative family unit, but you would be able to communicate with the two contributors and share notes.
Jason
Click to expand...
Thanks very much for the info and link Jason. Very much appreciated.
 
Stephen Keely said:
Thank you very much MWS for kindly looking up that information for me. The fact that he is listed as a nailer is very helpful and interesting. May I ask were their any ages given for Thomas and Hannah on the marriage record? Or names of parents? Thanks again for your help.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately there are no ages or parents listed on marriages that early. That is what makes it difficult to match births and deaths to Thomas and Hannah.

The ages from the burials I mentioned would be appropriate for the Thomas and Hannah of the marriage but there's no way to be certain they are the same people.
 
MWS said:
Unfortunately there are no ages or parents listed on marriages that early. That is what makes it difficult to match births and deaths to Thomas and Hannah.

The ages from the burials I mentioned would be appropriate for the Thomas and Hannah of the marriage but there's no way to be certain they are the same people.
Click to expand...
Thanks again MWS, you've certainly given me a lot lot to be going on with. I am very appreciative
 
MWS said:
Unfortunately there are no ages or parents listed on marriages that early. That is what makes it difficult to match births and deaths to Thomas and Hannah.

The ages from the burials I mentioned would be appropriate for the Thomas and Hannah of the marriage but there's no way to be certain they are the same people.
Click to expand...
MWS you mentioned that the Thomas Green who married Hannah was a nailer. Is he likely to be the same Thomas Green listed as a Master Nailer who lived at and built Harborne House?
 
I don't think it is "baptised". Banns are usually referred to as being published or called. This happens 3 times - in this case Oct 22nd, 29th and Nov 5th.
 
I have jut checked other entries and they clearly say "published" - I am not sure what the vicar went to write and then tried to change on Thomas's record but assume it should have said the same.
1616572559242.png
 
Stephen Keely said:
MWS you mentioned that the Thomas Green who married Hannah was a nailer. Is he likely to be the same Thomas Green listed as a Master Nailer who lived at and built Harborne House?
Click to expand...

Difficult to know. When was it built?

You would need some other information to corroborate it - a Will that mentions known relatives or a newspaper report.
 
A quick search for Harborne House mentions a Thomas Green Simcox (b1787) who died in 1828, so it's likely to be him or a relative of his.

His son of the same name b1810 is listed as the vicar of North Harborne in 1851.
 
Thomas Green Simcox (the elder) is likely to be the son of a George Symcox & Elizabeth Green.

They married at St Martin's, Bham 14 Jan 1784. It's possible that your Thomas Green is related to Elizabeth Green but it'd probably just be a bit of wishful thinking.
 
MWS said:
Thomas Green Simcox (the elder) is likely to be the son of a George Symcox & Elizabeth Green.

They married at St Martin's, Bham 14 Jan 1784. It's possible that your Thomas Green is related to Elizabeth Green but it'd probably just be a bit of wishful thinking.
Click to expand...
Thanks so much for researching this stuff for me, it is extremely generous. As far as I understand Elizabeth was the daughter of an earlier Thomas Green Esq who died in 1803. I have his will but can't make head or tail of it to determine if he had a daughter called Jane or not. The writing is very difficult to decipher.
 
Stephen Keely said:
Thanks so much for researching this stuff for me, it is extremely generous. As far as I understand Elizabeth was the daughter of an earlier Thomas Green Esq who died in 1803. I have his will but can't make head or tail of it to determine if he had a daughter called Jane or not. The writing is very difficult to decipher.
Click to expand...
 
I think that when Elizabeth Green married Thomas Simcox they changed their name to Green-Simcox. Elizabeth's father Thomas Green Esq is the one I am looking at to establish if he was the husband of Hannah and the father of Jane
 
It's unlikely that the Elizabeth Green wife of George Simcox was the daughter of Thomas & Hannah. Thomas & Hannah seemed to have had a daughter Elizabeth but she was baptised in 1783.
 
Sorry, I got my facts mixed up. Thomas Green Esq built Harborne House and was Lord of the Manor. After his death it passed to his nephew Thomas Green Simcox. However Thomas Green Esq built Harborne Hall for his daughter Elizabeth who was married to George Simcox JP Brass founder. After her death Simcox remarried and continued to live at the hall. His son inherited the manor from Thomas Green's son. However I'm not really interested in Elizabeth. I want to establish if Thomas Green Esq who died in 1803 had a daughter called Jane. If not I can rule him out as being the ancestor in question. Somehow I need to find a way to transcribe his will.
 
Two questions then.

When was your Jane Green born?

What was the name of the son of Thomas Green who died without issue and left Harborne Hall to his nephew (Simcox).
 
Stephen Keely said:
I know this is extremely presumptious, but is there any chance somebody would be able to very kindly look at this will and see if it mentions a daughter Jane so that I can establish if this is the right Thomas Green. It is several pages long, but I can't make head or tale of it. https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imagevie...hstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&pId=107485
Click to expand...
Have had a quick look but it needs a more detailed search. Spotted George Simcox and Theodore Price (not sure where he fits in) who get lots of mentions.
There is also a group of ladies but haven't deciphered the surname. I also think a sister is referred to. Will have another go in the morning.
 
MWS said:
Two questions then.

When was your Jane Green born?

What was the name of the son of Thomas Green who died without issue and left Harborne Hall to his nephew (Simcox).
Click to expand...
Jane was born in Harborne to a Thomas Green and Hannah in 1787. I have been researching using a geneoloy site and Thomas Green Esq came up as a possible father. I am trying to confirm or disconfirm that. It has nothing to do with wishful thinking. The son of Thomas Green left the manor, (than is the estate) to his nephew. Whether he left Harborne Hall and Harborne House to his nephew, I don't know.Thomas Green lived at Harborne House not Harborne Hall. Harborne Hall was built for his daughter who married George. I don't know what Thomas Green Snr's son was called but probably also Thomas I wouldn't be surprised. However it is Thomas Green Snr that I am looking at
 
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