The Dam Busters

[jennyann]

Hi Viv: The damage done in the Dam Buster's raid was surveyed almost immediately it seems: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Chastise
Bomb Assessment is mentioned on here. The Germans also did assessment almost immediately and Albert Speer, German Armament Minister
sent a report to Adolf Hitler on what had happened to the dams. Link here: https://secretscotland.wordpress.com/2013/05/17/after-the-dambusters-raid/
There is so much information about the Dam Busters raid all over the Internet. Don't know of any Birmingham connections though there may be some.

 

[oldMohawk]

Hi Jenny - Thanks for the secretscotland link. The 'Loch Striven and the Bouncing Bomb' blog was interesting showing a video of all the practice runs using Mosquito aircraft as they experimented to get the correct heights and speeds. Interesting reading about the secrecy, a paragraph below

'Loch Striven was closed off while the tests were being carried out there, and a number of writers have describe how the Lumberjills were sealed in their cabins, with the windows covered and guard on the doors, while the bomb was being tested there, and smoke screens used to hide the public view along the loch from its entrance'.

One Mosquito flew too low and the bomb bounced up, hit the aircraft and caused a devastating crash.

 

[Vivienne14]

Thanks Jenny for the interesting links. I'd like to think that we didn't seize the opportunity to continue with the bombardment on humane grounds i.e. because the people repairing the damage were forced labourers. But somehow I'm sceptical. Interesting stuff. Viv.

 

[Big Gee]

In real life, did we go back to survey the damage? I also have another question. Who developed the parts/modified the planes/built the bouncing bombs? Were any Birmingham engineers/companies involved in the process at all? Viv.

The dams were photographed the next morning by a PRU Spitfire; the famous photo of the broken Mohne Dam was released to the press almost immediately. The aircraft (all Lancasters) were modified to carry the rotating mine by the manufacturers Avro Ltd, Woodford, Manchester. The bombs themselves were manufactured by Vickers Ltd, but I'm not sure at which of the sites. I don't know if any Birmingham companies were involved in the actual Dams Raid equipment, but almost certainly plenty of Birmingham and West Midlands companies supplied Avro Ltd. I'm sure a search on the net will yield much more information.

G

 

[Big Gee]

Thanks Jenny for the interesting links. I'd like to think that we didn't seize the opportunity to continue with the bombardment on humane grounds i.e. because the people repairing the damage were forced labourers. But somehow I'm sceptical. Interesting stuff. Viv.

There were no further raids on the Ruhr dams for the remainder of the war, although I believe at least one Italian dam was attacked at a later date, but not with a bouncing bomb. The bomb itself was never again used in anger, even though the Americans, Germans and Russians worked on their own versions of Wallis' original weapon.

I was working in Nordrhein-Westphalia in the mid-1970's, and was taken to see the Mohne Dam. It is far, far bigger than I ever imagined, and you could see the size of the breach by the different coloured masonry used to repair it. Awesome is not a word I normally use, but that really was awesome. The dam and the surrounding area is now very pleasant (as it was prior to the Dams Raid).

G

 

[Vivienne14]

Thanks Big Gee. Viv.

 

[jennyann]

Thanks for that Big Gee....There is a slight link to Birmingham in that one of the dams...Nant-y_Gro in Wales that was used for
testing Sir Barnes Wallis' experimental "bombs" was built by the Birmingham Corporation for the Elan Valley project. Other dams were built and the Nant-y-Gro dam was abandoned and .thereore, could be used. It seems from research that the Nant-y-Gro dam was not used to test the actual bouncing bombs but strong explosives were tested out to see if a further developed bomb could be successful in breaking down the German dams concrete walls. Small reference but nevertheless a link.
https://www.cpat.org.uk/projects/longer/histland/elan/evrese.htm and https://books.google.ca/books?id=Cd...-Gro dam Wales-Birmingham Corporation&f=false

 

[maypolebaz]

There were no further raids on the Ruhr dams for the remainder of the war, although I believe at least one Italian dam was attacked at a later date, but not with a bouncing bomb. The bomb itself was never again used in anger, even though the Americans, Germans and Russians worked on their own versions of Wallis' original weapon.

I was working in Nordrhein-Westphalia in the mid-1970's, and was taken to see the Mohne Dam. It is far, far bigger than I ever imagined, and you could see the size of the breach by the different coloured masonry used to repair it. Awesome is not a word I normally use, but that really was awesome. The dam and the surrounding area is now very pleasant (as it was prior to the Dams Raid).

G

I read a book, years ago, which I think was called "The Dam Busters", by Paul Brickhill which gave the full history of 617 Squadron during the war. They went on to use another Barnes Wallis invention, "Grand Slam" in high precision raids on targets like U boat pens and the Tirpitz. Excellent book, I don't know if it's still in print though. (Where were you working by the way, G ?).

 

[Big Gee]

The first Wallis-designed 'earthquake' bomb was the 12000lb (5 tonne) Tallboy. The Grand Slam was 22000 lb (nearly 10 tonnes) and I think its first major successes were the destruction of the Bielefelde viaduct and the Saumur railway tunnel (which stopped the Wehrmacht moving Panzer reinforcements by train to the Channel coast after D-Day).
There's a Grand Slam at Cosford Museum - it's big! The amazing thing is that if a crew couldn't locate the target they were ordered to return and land with the un-dropped Grand Slam still on board, because they were so expensive and time-consuming to produce. Not even the B29 Superfortress had the lifting capability to carry one.

I've got the Paul Brickhill book. It was the first published account of the Dams Raid, and in novel rather than documentary form, with imagined conversations between the characters (something I can't stand in a 'history' book). There are much better, more recent, books about the Dam Busters - a search on Amazon will locate them.

I was working for Foseco Ltd at Borken, not far from the Dutch border, a bit in the middle of nowhere. That was in the days when the Luftwaffe and other European air-forces flew the dodgy European-built F104 Lockheed Starfighter. The Germans I worked with had learned to recognise the sound of them approaching, and visibly flinched, as many Starfighters, being faulty, flew into the ground.......

G

G

 

[Vivienne14]

Haven't watched this myself yet, but there's a Find My Past programme featuring 3 ancestors of those involved. Here's the link. Looks like you have to register first if not already registered. Viv.

https://www.findmypast.co.uk/conten..._content=240513&utm_campaign=newsletter240513

 

[maypolebaz]

The first Wallis-designed 'earthquake' bomb was the 12000lb (5 tonne) Tallboy. The Grand Slam was 22000 lb (nearly 10 tonnes) and I think its first major successes were the destruction of the Bielefelde viaduct and the Saumur railway tunnel (which stopped the Wehrmacht moving Panzer reinforcements by train to the Channel coast after D-Day).
There's a Grand Slam at Cosford Museum - it's big! The amazing thing is that if a crew couldn't locate the target they were ordered to return and land with the un-dropped Grand Slam still on board, because they were so expensive and time-consuming to produce. Not even the B29 Superfortress had the lifting capability to carry one.

I've got the Paul Brickhill book. It was the first published account of the Dams Raid, and in novel rather than documentary form, with imagined conversations between the characters (something I can't stand in a 'history' book). There are much better, more recent, books about the Dam Busters - a search on Amazon will locate them.

I was working for Foseco Ltd at Borken, not far from the Dutch border, a bit in the middle of nowhere. That was in the days when the Luftwaffe and other European air-forces flew the dodgy European-built F104 Lockheed Starfighter. The Germans I worked with had learned to recognise the sound of them approaching, and visibly flinched, as many Starfighters, being faulty, flew into the ground.......

G

G

I had to look on the map for Borken, it's not a place I'd heard of but it doesn't look to far from Muenster, where I was posted for a while. The last few years of my time in Germany were in the Sauerland which was a training area. The hated Starfighter used to maneouver over the town and made a hideous screeching sound as they did so. I remember at the time they used to be called the "Flying Coffin".

 

[Big Gee]

I said Borken is in the middle of nowhere! Like a lot of small German towns, it closed down at around 9.00pm. The guy who took me to see the Mohne Dam wasn't very clued up about what happened the night of the Dams Raid, but I don't think he was a local; I remember him telling me that it would probably have been subject to a news blackout in Nazi Germany at the time.

I can remember seeing a Starfighter at a Gaydon Air Display in the early 1960's, and couldn't help but be impressed. Fortunately it was a US-built one. I just googled it, and was surprised to learn that it was still on active service with the Italian Air Force in 2004.

G

 

[sheldontony]

I have found a picture of one of the bombs

A German official stands next to an unexploded, British Upkeep bouncing bomb. The weapon was recovered from the wreckage of Avro Lancaster ED927/G 'AJ-E', piloted by Flt Lt Barlow. The aircraft crashed at 2350 hours on 16 May 1943 after striking power lines 5km east of Rees, Germany. All on board were killed.