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The City of Birmingham - 46235

It will be a bit hard to get it out of Thinktank at Millennium Point now. Especially since the Thinktank Science Garden got built!

This is the view from inside Thinktank to the Science Garden



 
Rupert said:
Yeah, I too have seen several photo's of Coronation Class in New Street. But what the tunnel head clearance is now is unknown and it seems to me that the photo's of this engine were all taken on the up line to London. Maybe that was the only line to have the necessary head room. The stacks are very flush. I can't remember if any of the photo's were semi's though.
Bit daft to build engines for the LMS that would not fit into the second city station. What were they thinking if this is the case. Great looking engine with or without the streamlining. The last hurrah for steam although there is another one that was built recently that is not too shabby also. I can't imagine that you would want to run these heavy thumpers on track that modern light Pendulino style rolling stock runs on
Click to expand...


It seems that Semi's did reach new Street in the 1960's https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/lnwrbns_br2003.htm


I've read before that the ballast on railway lines has been raised, reducing the clearances that are available.
 
Hi

Nice picture, but just one academic point. The train is not standing at Platform 1 as stated in the article, but
at Platform 3. Platforms 1 and 2 were not through lines, but stopped just behind the stairway down from the overhead
bridge to Platform 3. You could walk through the gap to the bar at the back of Platform 1. Happy Days!

Kind regards

Dave
 
On another academic point, had 46257 arrived from somewhere up North, and is waiting to remove the stock to Vauxhall or was it a train bound for Euston?
 
Dave89 said:
Hi

Nice picture, but just one academic point. The train is not standing at Platform 1 as stated in the article, but
at Platform 3. Platforms 1 and 2 were not through lines, but stopped just behind the stairway down from the overhead
bridge to Platform 3. You could walk through the gap to the bar at the back of Platform 1. Happy Days!

Kind regards

Dave
Click to expand...


It is a very good site, but I have noticed mistakes in the past, however I never noticed this one.
 
In the Feb. 2015 issue 'Steam World', there is a photo of 46235 City of Birmingham on a 3 coach Crewe-Warrington train in 1955. It is fitted with a sloping smoke box boiler indicating that during its early years, it was one of the streamlined locomotives however, the locomotive in the Birmingham Museum has a straight smoke box. This raises an interesting question, did 46235 have a boiler change between 1955 and it being donated to the museum or is the present exhibit another locomotive purporting to be 46235?
 
perry commoner said:
In the Feb. 2015 issue 'Steam World', there is a photo of 46235 City of Birmingham on a 3 coach Crewe-Warrington train in 1955. It is fitted with a sloping smoke box boiler indicating that during its early years, it was one of the streamlined locomotives however, the locomotive in the Birmingham Museum has a straight smoke box. This raises an interesting question, did 46235 have a boiler change between 1955 and it being donated to the museum or is the present exhibit another locomotive purporting to be 46235?
Click to expand...

Hi, that seems like an odd working for a Princess Coronation Pacific! I've seen a nice colour picture of 46235 at Crewe North Shed in 1958 while wearing "Royal Highlander" headboards. According to the trustworthy folks at Wikipedia, it had a boiler change in 1952.
 
Dave89 said:
Hi

Nice picture, but just one academic point. The train is not standing at Platform 1 as stated in the article, but
at Platform 3. Platforms 1 and 2 were not through lines, but stopped just behind the stairway down from the overhead
bridge to Platform 3. You could walk through the gap to the bar at the back of Platform 1. Happy Days!

Kind regards

Dave
Click to expand...

Oh right, thanks for the info. Did you visit the old Snow Hill station much, and if so did you prefer it to the old New Street?
 
Good point perry commoner. I have seen some photo's of The City of Birmingham standing at platform 3 on workings from the North but nothing showing the loco entering the South tunnel or photo's showing it leaving the tunnel at the Proof House end. So I am still convinced it could not enter the South tunnel because of clearance problems until the track was lowered for electrification in the early 60's. I wonder if the New Street turn-table at the north end could accommodate a 'semi'


Mike.
 
It was the SMOKE BOX semi streamed section that was replaced, not necessary the complete boiler. However, as already stated, there was a major servicing to the engine before its withdrawal in, I recall, March 1964. Whether the complete boiler was replaced, I have no idea. It is still the only Coronation Class locomotive, in its original BR condition. Many steam 'buffs' wish it to remain as such, others are pushing for this locomotive to be released from the walls that surround it. Eddie
 
Harbornite76 said:
It is a very good site, but I have noticed mistakes in the past, however I never noticed this one.
Click to expand...

And a third academic point: there's another mistake in the opening sentence of the link in Post #32 which seems to have been overlooked. It says: "Ex-LMS 7P 4-6-0 Princess Coronation class No 46257 'City of Salford' is seen standing ...... ". Harbornite76 refers to the "City of Birmingham" as "a Princess Coronation Pacific", which, of course, she is. But by definition (the Americans have the Whyte notation) a Pacific has a 4-6-2 wheel arrangement and not 4-6-0 as stated in the caption.
 
QUOTE=db84124;540177]And a third academic point: there's another mistake in the opening sentence of the link in Post #32 which seems to have been overlooked. It says: "Ex-LMS 7P 4-6-0 Princess Coronation class No 46257 'City of Salford' is seen standing ...... ". H/QUOTE]

Hi,

And of course it's an 8P !

In reply to Harbonite76

I travelled daily to New Street from my home near Stechford Station in the early 60s as I worked in the city, so
knew the old station pretty well, only venturing occasionally to Snow Hill.

Kind regards

Dave
 
Thank you for that Eddie, I guessed that it must have had some in its last ears or so of service and I heartily agree with your last sentiment, it should be out in steam where it belongs.
 
It the train has arrived from up North it would still be an up express terminating at Birmingham New Street.

So, if the engine couldn't traverse the south tunnel, two points remain to be answered, how was the stock removed and where was the loco serviced?

Would 46235 have reversed to Aston mpd via the Soho loop?


Harbornite76 said:
The description mentions that it is an up Express, so I'd assume that it is going to London Euston.
Click to expand...
 
Well the semi could uncouple and run around via the south end throat before the tunnel and reverse out via north end tunnel or possibly turn on the turn-table if it would fit! Service at Aston (3d) definitely, I have seen 'City of Leeds' 46248 on shed. The stock would be removed by the pilot 'New St nuisance' as it was called in the 50's and go to Duddeston or Monument Lane.

Mike.
 
Hello Mike, Yes that sounds very likely to me as well i suppose after servicing the loco would be rostered for the return night Glasgow working.
 
Dave89 said:
QUOTE=db84124;540177]And a third academic point: there's another mistake in the opening sentence of the link in Post #32 which seems to have been overlooked. It says: "Ex-LMS 7P 4-6-0 Princess Coronation class No 46257 'City of Salford' is seen standing ...... ". H/QUOTE]

Hi,

And of course it's an 8P !

In reply to Harbonite76

I travelled daily to New Street from my home near Stechford Station in the early 60s as I worked in the city, so
knew the old station pretty well, only venturing occasionally to Snow Hill.

Kind regards

Dave
Click to expand...

Oh right, do you remember the goods yard at Stechford?
 
Neville Philpott said:
It the train has arrived from up North it would still be an up express terminating at Birmingham New Street.

So, if the engine couldn't traverse the south tunnel, two points remain to be answered, how was the stock removed and where was the loco serviced?

Would 46235 have reversed to Aston mpd via the Soho loop?
Click to expand...


Oh I see, it seems odd that the South tunnel wouldn't have enough clearance. If an 8P had to get to Aston MPD, it seems that would be the route.
 
I have just come across this thread so I have been reading through it. I cannot believe that the LMS would have built any class of loco which could not run through a major station such as Birmingham. Remember this was only one loco in a class. For any express to take the Aston line from Stechford they must have been on diversion which would explain mwhy they would be seen going that way. Personally I have never visited Millenium Point so have not seen the loco since its Science Museum days I remember in the Science Museum it was winched backwards and forwards with steam sound effects.
 
DavidGrain said:
I. For any express to take the Aston line from Stechford they must have been on diversion which would explain mwhy they would be seen going that way. .
Click to expand...

Hi David,

Yes, absolutely, The diversions were normally on a Sunday, and were rerouted due to permanent way works
from the line which goes through Tamworth to the north. The trains would not in any case have entered New Street.

In 15 years living right by the Aston split I never saw any LMS Pacifics take the 'left' fork to New Street. I always understood
that these were built for the long haul runs from Euston to Scotland, which did not go through New Street.

Kind regards

Dave
 
Despite the suggestion that the locomotive is now unable to be removed from the Think Tank due a garden ( I heard of the prisoner of Zenda, it seems we have the prisoner of Birmingham :D ) I believe she is best left to sleep and be admired and studied where she is. As reported earlier in the thread there are two of this class of locomotives still out there:
(4)6229 Duchess of Hamilton and (4)6233 Duchess of Sutherland.
6229, as far as I know is under overhaul 6233 is operational.

https://www.railuk.info/steam/getsteam.php?row_id=10785
 
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