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Swan Inn/White Swan/Spring Gardens - Floodgate Street

T

TheFamilyHistorian

New Member
I am researching my family tree and found many Trueman's/Truman's living on and around Floodgate Street throughout the 1800's.
I've recently discovered that my GGG uncle Henry Trueman and his wife Ann possibly ran the White Swan for a number of years and have located them on the 1881 and 1891 census records living there.
Does anyone have any more information regarding the building or even any Trueman's you may know of from that area and time please?
Many thanks
TFH
 
I have looked at directories for 1867 up till 1900 for Floodgate st only, looking for Truemans. You should remember that the directory date is the publication date and will probably refer to the year before, and for early directories might be two years before that date

Henry Truman is listed as landlord of the White Swan in directories published 1876 - 97. In the 1899 edition the landlady is Mrs Ann Trueman. She had left by the 1900 edition



Also


1867-1868 Joseph Trueman fireiron maker , no 29 Floodgate st

1872 John & Henry Trueman flat iron maker no 3 Floodgate St

1872 Joseph Trueman. fireiron maker no 98 floodgate St

1888-1900 Arthur Truman shopkeeper no 97 Floodgate St
1876-1900 Joseph Truman fire iron maker back no 3 Floodgate St (described in different directories as no 3 , back 3 or court by no 3, but almost certainly same place
 
mikejee said:
I have looked at directories for 1867 up till 1900 for Floodgate st only, looking for Truemans. You should remember that the directory date is the publication date and will probably refer to the year before, and for early directories might be two years before that date

Henry Truman is listed as landlord of the White Swan in directories published 1876 - 97. In the 1899 edition the landlady is Mrs Ann Trueman. She had left by the 1900 edition

Also

1867-1868 Joseph Trueman fireiron maker , no 29 Floodgate st
1872 John & Henry Trueman flat iron maker no 3 Floodgate St
1872 Joseph Trueman. fireiron maker no 98 floodgate St
1888-1900 Arthur Truman shopkeeper no 97 Floodgate St
1876-1900 Joseph Truman fire iron maker back no 3 Floodgate St (described in different directories as no 3 , back 3 or court by no 3, but almost certainly same place
Click to expand...

Thank you so much for this.

White Swan-Henry died in 1896 so Ann must have carried on for a little while as sole Publican but explains why she wasn't in the 1900 directory.

I have Joseph, John, Henry and I think a different Arthur in my family tree. I have yet to place him properly but he must be related.
The Joseph at number 29 is White Swan-Henry's father, I have also found records stating he's a fire iron maker.
John appears to be White Swan-Henry's brother.
I think Joseph at back no 3/court 3 is the same Joseph from no 29 but in 1881 he's a widower living with daughter Julia and her family, explaining the different address.
I have a very long way to go with this still. It's really fascinating.

Are the directories anything I could access myself?

I really appreciate your help, thank you.
 
Allow me to explain how I started along this route. When I uploaded a brief history of the St. Matthias' Tavern I noticed that Harry and Lily Ashfield moved to the White Swan in Floodgate Street. I was only going to place a link but got intrigued. The building now trades as The Ruin and has a history page on their website : https://www.theruindigbeth.com/about - good to see a pub looking into the past. Few pub websites have such pages. Anyway, the page opens with the statement that the "public house was first opened by victualler Sam Fallows" in 1785. Well, I know that this is not the case but old maps [if accurate] do show that the Spring Gardens was on this corner site. Of course, I was most intrigued by this. So, I have looked into this and have uploaded a page which, I hope, helps to clarify a few things : https://www.midlandspubs.co.uk/birmingham/floodgate-street/spring-gardens.htm - now I will have to do a bit of work on the Swan!
 
Such interesting information! I was tracing my 4th Gt.Grandfather, Joseph Wallis, and saw that he had been a Victualler in Floodgate Street sometime around 1813 or before. I found your wonderful site with plenty of information and facts and from the list on there found out that he was a Licensee in 1811. Thanks!
 
Jayell said:
Such interesting information! I was tracing my 4th Gt.Grandfather, Joseph Wallis, and saw that he had been a Victualler in Floodgate Street sometime around 1813 or before. I found your wonderful site with plenty of information and facts and from the list on there found out that he was a Licensee in 1811. Thanks!
Click to expand...

Thanks for the feedback and I am pleased that you found something interesting. BTW I suspect that Joseph Wallis moved to the Spring Gardens from the New Inn on Bromsgrove Street. I certainly have a Joseph Wallis there in 1803 and 1810.
 
Brilliant! Things are falling into place with your help Midland Pubs! I knew that Joseph Wallis was living in Bromsgrove Street at No.131 definitely in 1828. In fact his father was a Carrier whose business was "near the New Inn, Bromsgrove Street, in 1792 (Universal British Trade Directory) and the New Inn was at 191-193 Bromsgrove Street. The fact that you tell me that Joseph Wallis was there in 1803 and 1810 is fantastic.

Judy
 
Hi Jayell, I'm new to this forum, and not entirely sure if it's O.K. to contact you on this page. My 4x gggrandfather is also Joseph Wallis. I am descended from his son John (1803) who married Harriett Mason, and they ran an eating house in Digbeth. I've hit a brick wall with John (1734) Do you think he could have been born in America?

Lynne
 
Hi Lynne, great to meet another cousin! I've sent you a message about this. John and Harriett ran an eating house at 40 Horsefair.

Judy
 
Hello, I am interested in the previous messages regarding the White Swan (now the Ruin) which I visited this morning, together with the old Royal Oak at 1 Barn Street. My Great grandfather ran a pub in 1890/1898 and have verbal confirmation of this from one of his daughters who was my great aunt. I know from listings of publican that his brother Charles ran the Royal Oak in 1881. What I can’t find is written evidence of James being at the Swan although I have a photograph of the family standing outside the premises. I initially thought James may have taken over the Royal Oak but having visited the two pubs today I am tempted to think James was at the White Swan. Also James wife Caroline Thornhill was daughter of Thomas Thornhill and Maria Richardson. I think she married twice being widowed, married Philip James Wallis and see that Joseph Wallis was in Floodgate Street in 1813 (previous messages)
Can anyone fill in the gaps for me? I have attached a photo of James and Caroline in what I believe could be the White Swan. The street sign isn’t easy to read but it’s position is the same as today.
Corner of Floodgate Street and Little Ann Street.
I would really appreciate any views or information. Fingers crossed
 
Kathtap217 said:
Hello, I am interested in the previous messages regarding the White Swan (now the Ruin) which I visited this morning, together with the old Royal Oak at 1 Barn Street. My Great grandfather ran a pub in 1890/1898 and have verbal confirmation of this from one of his daughters who was my great aunt. I know from listings of publican that his brother Charles ran the Royal Oak in 1881. What I can’t find is written evidence of James being at the Swan although I have a photograph of the family standing outside the premises. I initially thought James may have taken over the Royal Oak but having visited the two pubs today I am tempted to think James was at the White Swan. Also James wife Caroline Thornhill was daughter of Thomas Thornhill and Maria Richardson. I think she married twice being widowed, married Philip James Wallis and see that Joseph Wallis was in Floodgate Street in 1813 (previous messages)
Can anyone fill in the gaps for me? I have attached a photo of James and Caroline in what I believe could be the White Swan. The street sign isn’t easy to read but it’s position is the same as today.
Corner of Floodgate Street and Little Ann Street.
I would really appreciate any views or information. Fingers crossed
Click to expand...
 
Not sure if I have the right person but James HIll appears to have been an Ivory Turner in 1891 and 1901 at New John St and Great Russell St, some distance from Floodgate St.

Also it appears that Thomas Thornhill died in 1852, a few yeas before Caroline's birth. She seems to be listed as Thornhill with no mmn.
 
Kathtap217 said:
Sorry folks, I am trying to attach the photo but no success. Only loading to 92%
Click to expand...
You may need to reduce its size.
Instructions here in case you need them.

Uploading Pictures

I want to and have tried to upload a few newspaper cutting from 1968 & 1992 that will be of interest to you all but it just keeps telling me that they are too big and I don't know how to make them smaller, any help would be appreciated :))
birminghamhistory.co.uk birminghamhistory.co.uk
 
Thanks MWS. I do have the information you have given and James died following an accident at work from lockjaw. However, he is the publican on my photograph, or maybe helping out Charles at the Royal Oak, but I am sure the White Swan is the pub on the photo. My great Aunt, born in 1890, told us they lived above the pub as children but Caroline, her Mother died in 1898 and maybe they went to New John Street then as per 1891 census.
Thomas Thornhill signed Caroline’s marriage register entry in 1883, so maybe he was divorced from Maria rather than Maria being widowed.
I will keep searching. Many thanks for your reply and help.

Kath
 
If you can find the baptisms for James and Caroline's children there should hopefully be addresses which may shed light on their movements.

Divorce was very rare in the 19th century and usually only by the wealthy. They may have separated, though the death in 1852 appears to have the right age.
 
Hello again,

James Hill, my great grandfather wasn’t born until 1857. it is confusing, there was another James Hill (gunmaker) that you may have detected. Many thanks for your interest.
 
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