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Snook family

Yes, I think it WAS Stanley, come to think of it. Didn't realise that he had married into the Cole family as well. Or first, even. Don't know about Ethel's relationship to Ferdinand. Don't think he had any children of his own. But I do recall mention of nieces and nephews.

Send me a private message, Andrew. Go to the email icon, towards top right, than Start Conversation, then addressee is me, ChrisM. All private. Best if you let me have a personal email address and I'll reciprocate.

(We should definitely continue to keep as much as is appropriate on open Forum, as you infer, for the benefit of other members, now or in the future, who may be interested).

Chris
 
Yes, I think it WAS Stanley, come to think of it. Didn't realise that he had married into the Cole family as well. Or first, even. Don't know about Ethel's relationship to Ferdinand. Don't think he had any children of his own. But I do recall mention of nieces and nephews.

Send me a private message, Andrew. Go to the email icon, towards top right, than Start Conversation, then addressee is me, ChrisM. All private. Best if you let me have a personal email address and I'll reciprocate.

(We should definitely continue to keep as much as is appropriate on open Forum, as you infer, for the benefit of other members, now or in the future, who may be interested).

Chris
Andrew wrote: In my research I did come across records of Lillian May Snook and George Cole, living in Bristol Rd - another coincidence as I spent 4 years as a student at the University just around the corner.

Lilian May Snook, later Cole

I wrote a memoir for the Forum a long time ago (in a thread about Birmingham Rolls-Royces) in which Lilian ("Auntie Dickie") had a leading role. Going a bit off-topic but for what it's worth this is it:

We were very fortunate in having a source of holidays during the second half of the war. My mother's cousin Lilian, "Auntie Dickie," was married to "Uncle Ferdo", Ferdinand Cole, Managing Director of Singleton & Cole, a Birmingham wholesaler of tobacco, snuff and fancy goods. They had a weekend cottage in the middle of nowhere, tucked away down a lane, through two gates. The nearest village was Bredenbury in Worcestershire, not far from Bromyard. We had several visits there, probably in the summers of 1943 and 1944 when I was seven or eight.​
My mother and I used to get to the cottage with the help of Singleton & Cole transport which would pick us up at the Cole residence, a large house in the Bristol Road - no. 88 or 188, I think. On one occasion it was in a large Hillman or Humber convertible - with the hood up, to my extreme disappointment. The most memorable journey was however in one of the Company vans. This was a Rolls-Royce, I can only assume having been converted at an earlier stage to a van from a car. It seemed to be built like a large piece of expensive furniture and its engine ran like silk. Petrol rationing was at its height at that time, of course, and it was arranged that we should travel in the van which, by the happiest of coincidences (!), had to make an urgent delivery in the Bromyard area and had the package to prove it. It was fairly important therefore to conceal its main cargo from official view as it comprised Mother and Auntie Dickie huddled in the back with all the luggage, sitting on boxes in virtual darkness and being entertained by a large parrot and a white cockatoo in their cages. Clinging on for dear life, as were the birds - and laughing at their situation for most of the journey, as I recall. I sat up front with the driver, having been instructed to act as "the boy" in case of trouble.​
The journey was completed without incident except for passing one policeman on point duty who looked as though he was going to stop us but fortunately didn't. I remember our driver wafting air over his face with his hand in mock relief after we had gone by. I did not enjoy seeing this particular driver having any sudden surprises as I had been told previously that the reason why he, a youngish man, was not in the forces was that he had a weak heart. Even at that age I did not relish the combination of, on the one hand, his condition and, on the other, my personal well-being being in his hands.​
Auntie Dickie had been Uncle Ferdo's housekeeper for many years and they married after the death of his wife. It's a long story which I don't think is appropriate for open Forum!​
I know she had siblings and I met one of them in my teens. I THINK he was another George! Can remember little about it, though.​
Chris​

Hi Chris

Re Lilian May Cole (nee Snook b 1895) and her siblings:

She had two brothers - George William Snook b 1891 and Stanley Eric Snook b 1905. Stanley Eric did indeed marry Ethel Cole in 1939, and in 1941 their son Brian (my Dad) was born. My Dad didn’t think Ethel Cole and Ferdo Cole were related; he believed their having the same name was just coincidental, though if anyone knows any different, I’d be interested to hear! My grandad Stanley Eric worked for Singleton & Cole as a wholesale tobacconist manager in Birmingham though!

Dad talked about Lilian (who he called Aunty Lil) and Uncle Ferdo, and could remember the Rolls Royce vans and visiting a cottage when he was very young (I’m guessing the weekend cottage you referred to).
Interesting to hear that Aunty Lil was originally Uncle Ferdo’s housekeeper; I didn’t know that, and I’m not even sure my Dad did!
My great uncle George William Snook married Violet Madge Pitt in 1930 and they lived in the Birmingham/Wolverhampton areas until the 1950s, when they moved to Liverpool, and then in 1960 to Parkgate on the Wirral. My Dad’s mum Ethel died in 1957, and Stanley Eric remarried in 1959 to Alice Beatrice Pitt (sister of Madge). They too moved to Parkgate in 1960, where the two brothers along with their wives (two sisters) lived next door to one another!

Very interesting to hear about the Snook-Toveys; we came across them when researching our family tree, so it is nice to read more about them on here!

Kind regards
Cath
 
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Hi Chris

Re Lilian May Cole (nee Snook b 1895) and her siblings:

She had two brothers - George William Snook b 1891 and Stanley Eric Snook b 1903. Stanley Eric did indeed marry Ethel Cole in 1939, and in 1941 their son Brian (my Dad) was born. My Dad didn’t think Ethel Cole and Ferdo Cole were related; he believed their having the same name was just coincidental, though if anyone knows any different, I’d be interested to hear! My grandad Stanley Eric worked for Singleton & Cole as a wholesale tobacconist manager in Birmingham though!

Dad talked about Lilian (who he called Aunty Lil) and Uncle Ferdo, and could remember the Rolls Royce vans and visiting a cottage when he was very young (I’m guessing the weekend cottage you referred to).
Interesting to hear that Aunty Lil was originally Uncle Ferdo’s housekeeper; I didn’t know that, and I’m not even sure my Dad did!
My great uncle George William Snook married Violet Madge Pitt in 1930 and they lived in the Birmingham/Wolverhampton areas until the 1950s, when they moved to Liverpool, and then in 1960 to Parkgate on the Wirral. My Dad’s mum Ethel died in 1957, and Stanley Eric remarried in 1959 to Alice Beatrice Pitt (sister of Madge). They too moved to Parkgate in 1960, where the two brothers along with their wives (two sisters) lived next door to one another!

Very interesting to hear about the Snook-Toveys; we came across them when researching our family tree, so it is nice to read more about them on here!

Kind regards
Cath
Re above - amendment: Stanley’s Eric Snook was born in 1905, not 1903 sorry!
 
Good morning, CathL - (another descendant of James and Mary Tovey! - and a warm welcome to the Forum.

And what a helpful first contribution - which will be welcomed as well by Andrew and all those with an interest in the Snook and Tovey families.

Hope to take this discussion further shortly.

Chris
 
ELIZABETH BARNETT (ca1801-ca1880, mother of Mary Tovey)

Several of us are descended from Mary (Barnett) Tovey - including many Snooks - who came to Birmingham from Winchcombe in the 1850s with James Tovey, her husband, and their children. (See my post #25 above). Mary had a mother, Elizabeth Barnett, who was visiting her daughter and family (happily) on the day of the 1851 Census. She was my mother's great-great-grandmother. My mother identified her as such on the back of this remarkable image fromthe 1860s or 1870s. Elizabeth's lifespan is thought to be 1801-1880. The photograph was taken in Birmingham during, presumably, another visit - or was Elizabeth living permanently with her family?

Here she is:

ElizabethBarnettDeritendca1.jpg

And the photographer's details, with my mother's identification (on the basis, presumably, of what she was told by elder relatives):

elizabeth_barnett_c1860_2.jpg

Chris

(Source of images: My personal collection)
 
LILIAN MAY SNOOK (later COLE)
(1895-1959, daughter of James Snook, b.1868 and Rose, grandaughter of George Snook b.1840)

Lilian and Ferdo married in, I think, 1946. Not too long afterwards Ferdo retired, they sold their large house in Bristol Road and moved to a magnificent, 1603 and a bit spooky house in Bromyard where they lived for the rest of their lives: Tower House. Where Charles II is supposed to have had an overnighter at the time of the Battle of Worcester. I had the odd one too!

There are many mages of it online - it's quite a historic house - but here are a couple taken by my father 70 years ago. Hope the present owners don't mind.....

Street view:

TowerHousebromyardlate1940s.jpg

And the rear:

TowerHouseBromyardRearlate1.jpg

Such a shame that the occupants don't appear in either of them. Nor their little terrier, Wendy.

Chris

Chris

(Source of images: My personal collection)
 
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ELIZABETH BARNETT (mother of Mary Tovey)

Several of us are descended from Mary (Barnett) Tovey - including many Snooks - who came to Birmingham from Winchcombe in the 1850s with James Tovey, her husband, and their children. (See my post #25 above). Mary had a mother, Elizabeth Barnett, who was visiting her daughter and family (happily) on the day of the 1851 Census. She was my mother's great-great-grandmother. My mother identified her as such on the back of this remarkable image fromthe 1860s or 1870s. Elizabeth's lifespan is thought to be 1801-1880. The photograph was taken in Birmingham during, presumably, another visit - or was Elizabeth living permanently with her family?

Here she is:

View attachment 152490

And the photographer's details, with my mother's identification (on the basis, presumably, of what she was told by elder relatives):

View attachment 152491

Chris
[/QUO
LILIAN (SNOOK) COLE

Lilian and Ferdo married in, I think, 1946. Not too long afterwards Ferdo retired, they sold their large house in Bristol Road and moved to a magnificent, 1603 and a bit spooky house in Bromyard where they lived for the rest of their lives: Tower House. Where Charles II is supposed to have had an overnighter at the time of the Battle of Worcester. I had the odd one too!

There are many mages of it online - it's quite a historic house - but here are a couple taken by my father 70 years ago. Hope the present owners don't mind.....

Street view:

View attachment 152493

And the rear:

View attachment 152494

Such a shame that the occupants don't appear in either of them. Nor their little terrier, Wendy.

Chris
Wow, what an incredible house! This information is great, thanks for posting !
 
So Elizabeth Barnett was my Great Great Great Grandmother too! I expect there are lots of cousins around
 
ELIZABETH BARNETT (mother of Mary Tovey)

Several of us are descended from Mary (Barnett) Tovey - including many Snooks - who came to Birmingham from Winchcombe in the 1850s with James Tovey, her husband, and their children. (See my post #25 above). Mary had a mother, Elizabeth Barnett, who was visiting her daughter and family (happily) on the day of the 1851 Census. She was my mother's great-great-grandmother. My mother identified her as such on the back of this remarkable image fromthe 1860s or 1870s. Elizabeth's lifespan is thought to be 1801-1880. The photograph was taken in Birmingham during, presumably, another visit - or was Elizabeth living permanently with her family?

Here she is:

View attachment 152490

And the photographer's details, with my mother's identification (on the basis, presumably, of what she was told by elder relatives):

View attachment 152491

Chris
What a great photo! It’s so nice to find out more snippets of information, and how they slot in with my own family. Many thanks!
 
My great grandfather was James Snook b 1868, the third child of George Snook and Mary Ann Tovey. These photos of him and his wife Roseanna are in a small album that belonged to their youngest son (my grandad) Stanley Eric Snook. The date is 1937
796A87FD-0820-4C1C-B649-E9BF4A5AA7C3.jpeg
I’ve also a photo of Lilian May with my grandad, taken in 1905/6:
0A882167-282B-46B1-8518-C22CF1EDCFDA.jpeg
 
Wonderful! A picture of my Auntie Dickie (of whom I have fond memories).

And of Stanley. I possibly met him, and George, on different occasions, once during the war and once in the 1950s. Recollections are hazy. The wartime one was connected with Auntie Dickie and Singleton and Cole Ltd. Did either or both work for that company?

Chris
 
LILIAN (SNOOK) COLE

Lilian and Ferdo married in, I think, 1946. Not too long afterwards Ferdo retired, they sold their large house in Bristol Road and moved to a magnificent, 1603 and a bit spooky house in Bromyard where they lived for the rest of their lives: Tower House. Where Charles II is supposed to have had an overnighter at the time of the Battle of Worcester. I had the odd one too!

There are many mages of it online - it's quite a historic house - but here are a couple taken by my father 70 years ago. Hope the present owners don't mind.....

Street view:

View attachment 152493

And the rear:

View attachment 152494

Such a shame that the occupants don't appear in either of them. Nor their little terrier, Wendy.

Chris

chris so what rellie of your lived in that fantastic house..ive lost the plot lol

lyn
 
This seems to be one of the very few photos I have of my great uncle George William Snook (eldest child of James and Roseanna Snook) taken in c1917:
DD61FDFE-68E0-4993-9829-A411E9CC0B7D.jpeg
I also have this photo of Stanley Eric Snook from the 1920s, looking very dapper:
12AA3BF7-F4AB-498F-8CB4-CD27385921DB.jpeg
And finally, a photo from about 1945, of my grandad Stanley Eric Snook, his wife Ethel (Cole) and their son Brian, my dad:
7948CD1C-D372-4397-8C7A-685853A055B5.jpeg
 
Wonderful! A picture of my Auntie Dickie (of whom I have fond memories).

And of Stanley. I possibly met him, and George, on different occasions, once during the war and once in the 1950s. Recollections are hazy. The wartime one was connected with Auntie Dickie and Singleton and Cole Ltd. Did either or both work for that company?

Chris

Stanley worked as a wholesale tobacconist manager for Singleton & Cole. I have this match case that was his:
FC4DEAD1-7752-4F85-A122-02DF4CA3C187.jpeg
7BDB1A18-E9B2-4298-8849-10A4A7251FB4.jpeg
I believe George William worked in insurance; I don’t think he had any links with Singleton & Cole.
 
Lyn, Lilian May Snook was a cousin of my mother’s and effectively a sister, which both were otherwise lacking. Close throughout their lives and Lilian was known to me as Auntie Dickie.

Chris
 
LILIAN MAY SNOOK (later COLE)
(1895-1959, daughter of James Snook, b.1868 and Roseanna, grandaughter of George Snook b.1840)

Wonderful images, thanks, Cath. We are building a bit of an album of Lilian.

Here's an addition. Andrew has discovered that Lilian served in the Army during the Great War. (I never knew that). That provides me with an almost certain identification for two images I have from that time.

Lilian (she could almost be my mother):

LilianMaySnookprob1919img80.jpg

And, photographed at the same time, presumably her parents, James and Roseanna Snook:

LilianSnookParentsca1919.jpg

The location is most likely to be 94 Gladstone Road, Sparkbrook but just possibly might be 706 Coventry Road.

Chris

Source of images: My personal collection
 
Re Lilian May Snook
Wow, amazing images, and some new information too! I had no idea Lilian had also served in the War. Thank you Andrew and Chris!
 
Don't know about other members, but I find it difficult to get my head around genealogical data when presented in narrative form - even when I know a bit about the specific area. Even worse when there's anecdote mixed up in it. So, I've tried to express what several of us have been saying over the last few posts in graphic/tree form and to see how at least three of us fit together. It's very crude - I'm no genealogist - and I hope it doesn't confuse things further!

I'm editing previous post #25 (which was an attempt at a narrative summary) as the best place to include it. Hope it helps.

Chris
 
Your diagram is very clear, and consistent with my knowledge of these two families. Looking back through this thread it looks as though some years ago there were other contributors whose ancestors appear in it. Are they still out there? - the jigsaw is coming together nicely and a couple more pieces would be great!
 
I echo Andrew’s sentiments, Chris: a very clear diagram! It’s now much easier to see how we all fit into the tree!
 
Here are two images, I'm 99% certain they are Edward Snook, one c1905, the other c1910-15, I don't know where the latter was taken.
 

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Another for the growing collection.

GEORGE SNOOK (1840-1923) and ELIZABETH (TOVEY) SNOOK (1848-1923)

Here is a portrait of George and Elizabeth Snook, with a third, so far unidentified gentleman. They are photographed in a romantic, craggy setting.

UnknownManGeorgeSnookElizab.jpg

There is no doubt about the identification. On the rear of the photograph, in my mother's own writing, is "My Granny and Grandpa Snook". My mother knew them well. She lived with them for almost the first 20 years of her life.

georgeelizabethsnookPortrai.jpg

The rear of the photograph also tells us that they are not somewhere in the remote Scottish Highlands but in the Isle of Man: either in the studio of John Waring Walton, a photographer whose premises are at 53 Athol Street, Douglas; or, perhaps more likely, at one of his "branches" which appear to be picturesque outdoor locations where he sets up his apparatus on sunny days. They are on holiday and apparently wearing their holiday - or is it Sunday? - best. There are even flowers in the gentlemen's button holes. Umbrellas are in evidence and so perhaps there is the threat of a shower. The best judgement in my family is that the photograph was taken in 1900/1901. It is very unlikely to vary from that by more than a year or two and so we'll assume that date to be correct.

Just a normal picture of its time, a respectable Victorian couple, on holiday and preserving the moment. Amongst so many similar, hardly worth a second glance. But some of us can look at this picture and think about the people in it. We know something about them and, on the basis of that, we can look into their faces and and think about their lives and characters and wonder about the things which they know but we don't. This is what I see; others will see different things.

At this moment, George is 60, Elizabeth 52. They both have a further 23 years of life to look forward to. Neither was born in Birmingham. They both left their original homes with their families at an early age, in around 1850, Elizabeth coming direct from Winchcombe in Gloucestershire, George by a more indirect route from his Salisbury birthplace, via Wolverhampton. As she sits there, Elizabeth will remember nothing other than life in Birmingham. George, perhaps, still has memories of an early childhood in a city very different from the one he now knows so well. But perhaps by now they are both true Brummies.

George looks directly at us, solid, respectable, dependable. He will have his memories, as we all do. In Birmingham, his father had been a coal dealer in Stone Yard, Deritend. George's trade was "Horse Hair Curler" and later, "Packer" and "General Haulier". He had married Mary Ann Tovey 38 years ago and they had lived in various addresses in the same area over the years, including Crawley Court, Alcester Street, William Edward Street, Leamington Terrace and finally back in Stone Yard. Six children appeared over about 14 years of whom one died in infancy, a tragedy no doubt faced by so many of his contemporaries.. But for George an even greater tragedy was about to occur. With the five surviving children at ages of between one and fourteen, Mary Ann had died of Typhoid and Exhaustion in May 1876, about 24 years before the photograph. But now, the years have passed and the pain has eased. As we look at George and his second wife, Elizabeth, his children are grown up - they are aged between 25 and 38. Have they all flown the family nest yet? As he looks back at us, is George wondering if his thimble factory in Floodgate Street is running satisfactorily in his absence.? And can George and Elizabeth see on the horizon a quiet and comfortable retirement in their family home - at this moment possibly "The Vale", Albert Road, Stechford or, in the near future, "Salisbury", Station Road, Knowle, the latter so far away from the bustle and soot of inner Birmingham. George must be thinking at this moment that, whatever trials and tribulations he has endured, he hasn't done at all badly.

And by his side is Elizabeth. A dour, Victorian lady in whose presence you would behave very carefully indeed. No question of using a swear word within her hearing, or, even less, tell a joke in doubtful taste. She too has her memories. Seeing her elder sister, Mary Ann - living just around the corner - suffering from and then dying of typhoid, leaving five young children motherless. And then coming to the aid of her widowed brother-in-law with support for him and her niece and nephews before, about a year later, marrying him and devoting her life to him, and to them. All now a quarter of a century ago.

And as we look at her, in all her respectability, and perhaps feel a little daunted by her gaze, we know, some of us, that she has a bit of a past, a secret, not that you could really believe it from her appearance today. How to describe it? A "moment of madness", perhaps? But possibly a bit more than that. Four years before her sister's illness and death she seems to have been living as a wife with a George Edward Thomas and have done him the honour of giving her son - born on 17th February 1871 - the father's name as forenames; but she declined to name him on the birth certificate and to use his surname for her son: and so the infant would always bear the full name of George Thomas Tovey. Only Elizabeth knows the full story and as we stare at her face, we know full well that she is not going to reveal anything about it to us.

But that is all in the past. Today she has other preoccupations, some joyful and some sad. George Thomas Tovey, now a thimble maker, her only child, is married to Rebecca Brown. Six years ago they presented her with a grandson, also called George Thomas; but two years later the little boy succumbed to acute pneumonia. Last year another child appeared, Elsie. Elizabeth doesn't know it yet, and we do, but even greater crises lie ahead. Next year, Elsie will be joined by another daughter, Clara. But again at the age of two, this child will also be lost, from shock following head injuries after having been run over by a cart. Meanwhile Beatrice has appeared, the year before the accident. Whether Elizabeth yet knows it or not, strains are developing in the marriage. Rebecca takes to the bottle - who can blame her? - the marriage breaks up and the destiny of the two surviving children is decided. The infant Beatrice goes with the mother. And Elsie goes to Elizabeth and George Snook.

Here is Elsie, a year or two after her move to Knowle:

FEM1906or7red.jpg

But back to the present and the photograph. Who is the third person? He is close enough to be included within the group and must be a family member, or at least a very close friend. It isn't George Thomas Tovey. Could it be one of George Snook's sons, on holiday with them and, presumably, there as a single man? They are very smartly dressed. Just normal holiday wear, suitable for a promenade along the front with all the other respectable holidaymakers? Or another, more special occasion? An anniversary? And Elizabeth's remarkable gown. Is it truly black - or a nice shade of dark blue, or even red or green? And if it is really black, could it be mourning black - for a lost grandchild or another relative?

As George and Elizabeth sit there, neither can have any idea that they are about to start another phase of child rearing: to look after Elsie, now about four, and to give her care, protection and love, for the next 17 years until her marriage. Elsie's own mother is written out of the history books. "....Your mother is dead.....".

That is how it will stay, right up until Elsie's own death in 1995 at a time when family history research will prove otherwise. Elsie always knew that the official line was untrue - as did Elizabeth - and she maintained contact with Rebecca, secretly, and offered her little kindnesses for much of the next forty years. But the story presumably became more and more difficult to deny as the years passed and so the truth was never revealed to her three children.

And that's why I never had a grannie.

Chris
 
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I'm fairly sure this is George and Elizabeth, again. A not very good photo but remarkable for its time - it's taken indoors. No flash then, or at least, not for amateur photographers. I think the bright lights are reflections of the main source of light, a central gas mantle or mantles - via a glass dome behind them, perhaps?.

This was almost certainly taken at their home, "Salisbury", Station Road, Knowle.

LadyandManprobElizandGeorge.jpg

This is another, the only other indoor photo I have from the time, and so probably taken in the same room, on the same occasion, possibly Elsie, reading. 1918/1920?

UkPersonReadingIndoorsca192.jpg


Poor quality images, taken from tiny negatives. But as Dr. Johnson said of the dog walking on its hind legs: "Sir, ..... It is not done well; but you are surprised to find it done at all."

Chris
 
A fascinating story and great to see those images of our ancestors. Regarding the Isle of Man photo - I think the other man might be George Snook, the youngest child of George Snook and Mary Ann Tovey. He would have been 25 and had not yet married, and the 1901 census shows that at the time he still was living with his parents, at the Vale, Albert Rd. This would have been shortly before father George and step-mother Elizabeth moved to Salisbury House, Station Road, Knowle. George's eldest child, Caroline and her husband George Thompson were already living in Station Rd at the time. You've discounted George Thomas Tovey, and I'm sure it's not my grandfather Edward. The photo of James (see #40) again shows the strong family likeness but I don't think it's him - slightly rounder face, and he would have been 33 and was married with two young children by the time the photo was taken. The other son, William Samuel, would have been 35 and was married with 4 children at the time of the photo. So my bet is that this is George Snook the younger. By 1905 he had left the family home (parents had moved to Knowle) and he lived in Gladstone Rd Sparkbrook. He married Martha Rose in 1907 - and his brother my grandfather Edward, by now ordained as a priest, officiated at the wedding. Later I think they lived in Addison Rd Kings Heath but I don't know anything else about them.

Andrew
 
Thanks for that, Andrew. There are so many possiblies and probablies in all this! George, the youngest son, certainly looks the most likely. As I've said before, the inclusion in the photograph of a non-family member, on holiday with George and Elizabeth, is a bit unlikely.

Do you think that there is any family resemblance with the daguerreotype you posted earlier? Very probably from a far earlier date, of course....

I wonder how adjacent the homes of George Thompson and George Snook were? The same row? (I think they were terraced). Built by George T? Did George own the property? (I'm looking forward to the 1921 Census - my brother always suspected that my widowed paternal grandfather, and his son, also lived in one of those houses, following the early death of the wife/mother, my grandmother, in Chessetts Wood in 1918. Which would explain how my parents met).

I went with my mother - Freda Elsie, as she was by then known - on a little trip down, for her, memory lane, in the 1950s or 1960s. As we drove past her childhood home she was pleased to see it again but said that that was it, she never wanted to go back again. And she never did. The changes were probably just too great for her and I suspect she didn't regard them as improvements. I drove through Knowle again a couple of years ago. I think the houses are still there although I didn't stop to look. The road seemed to have been realigned from how I remembered it and if Elsie thought the changes in about 1960 were too much, well, it's lucky she wasn't there in 2019!!

Chris
 
I'm still not sure about the man in the daguerreotype, he could be from another branch of the family.

In the 1911 census there is one entry between that of George Snook and that of his daughter Caroline and son-in-law George Thompson so they were (almost) next door neighbours. Also in the same street was Henry Thompson, George's brother who was also a builder, as was their father, so a family business. Perhaps they built some of the houses. You can view them in google maps on the north side of Station rd near the junction with Warwick Rd. The census did not give numbers but the probate for George Snook in 1923 quoted 'Salisbury House', and for George Thompson in 1929 it quoted 'Brighton villa', 152 Station Rd. This is on the corner with St Lawrence Close (modern development) and is a large Edwardian house now sub-divided into two. The 1939 Register shows the widow Caroline still in the house, and electoral records confirm her granddaughter Muriel still there decades later. I'm not sure on which side would have been Salisbury House. As you say the 1921 census should make interesting reading!

Andrew
 
Just a few fragments of Snook/Tovey family information, of possible interest to any member descended from George Snook and Elizabeth Tovey who might look at this thread now or in the future.


GEORGE and ELIZABETH SNOOK
I've looked everywhere for further images of George and Elizabeth, beyond the two posted previously. I have to conclude that no others survive. There are a few others of unnamed men, women and children and some of these MAY be other members of George's family. But definitely none of him (nor of course, from earlier days, of Mary Ann, the mother of his children). This is disappointing because my father, who knew him from somewhere around 1916/1917 up until his death in 1923, had, in the latter years, acquired a camera. But many of the surviving, identifiable images are, as you would expect, of Elsie whom he married in January 1921. The contact with the family was close enough for my father to enter "Salisbury" as his civilian address on his demob papers, his own family home having been sold by his widowed and grieving father whilst he was away in the Army.

Elsie, probably in the garden at "Salisbury", probably 1919/1920.

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I have just one little story of life at "Salisbury" which my mother told me:
George and Elizabeth had a parrot and dog. The parrot had managed to learn George's whistle which he used for summoning the dog. The garden at "Salisbury" was of a reasonable size. On more than one occasion, when the dog was at the far end of it and the windows were open, the parrot would perform this whistle. The dog would react to the summons by tearing back down the garden at top speed and into the house. When it bounded into the room, panting, to find its master, the latter of course wouldn't be there. Now, parrots can speak and dogs can't. But if they could there's little doubt that what would have been said would have reflected the thought exactly: "That B***DY parrott....!!!"

George died at "Salisbury" in October 1923. Very shortly afterwards, Elizabeth moved to Elsie's new home in Croydon Road, Erdington but died there only a few weeks later, on 4th December 1923, of Heart Failure. George left all his assets to his five children but required them to provide for the material needs of Elizabeth as he had previously made clear to them. George Thomas was not mentioned in the will.


DESCENDANTS
George Snook had five surviving children and, presumably, all or most had issue. Some have been mentioned already in this thread and others I am unaware of. George's second wife, Elizabeth Tovey, also had descendants, and I know of all of these. She had one son, George Thomas Tovey (who normally would not have gained his mother's family surname but who, because of circumstances mentioned earlier, in fact did). Through him she had four great-grandchildren (of whom I am the sole survivor) and then, onward, six gt.gt.-grandchildren (only one of whom lives in or near Birmingham); ten gt.gt.gt.-Grandchildren (again, just one in/near Birmingham); and, so far, nine gt.gt.gt.gt. grandchildren (one, a newish one, in/near Brum and the rest elsewhere in the U.K., in France and in Turkey). All of these descendants, via George Thomas, came down through a female line and so none of them carried on the Tovey name. There are however many Toveys still in the city and some of these will also have descended from Elizabeth's parents, James and Mary.

And so it is that the city has changed form a net importer of families in the 19th c.- Elizabeth and George, amongst so many - to a net exporter in the 20th and 21st! Or in the case of my family, at least......


GEORGE SNOOK'S THIMBLE FACTORY
My brother did some research on this. George's trade in Deritend was quoted, in Kelly's, as Furniture Remover (1876), ditto (1880), Hair Pin Maker (1881), Coal Merchant (1882) and Furniture Remover (1883-1886). These are some of his comments after that period:

"Somewhere around this time, the career of George Snook seems to have taken an upwards step for he set up, or maybe purchased, a modest factory in Floodgate Street on the opposite side of Deritend, for the manufacture of small articles such as thimbles, hair pins and the like.

The Directory (Kelly's) gives a fascinating picture of Floodgate Street with a complete list of the occupiers. In the 1888 version, the east side of the street began with the premises of Alfred Bird & Sons, Baking Powder Manufacturers, known as Devonshire Works , and continued with the Helping Hand Institution, the Shaftesbury Hall, and a miscellany of small factories, workshops, public houses and shopkeepers, and extending all the way from Deritend to Fazeley Street. George Snook's factory was located about halfway along this side, adjacent to a tavern called Spring Gardens. The street followed the line of the River Rea and the opposite side was occupied by a similar mixture of traders. If this account is compared with a similar version dated 1908, there are many changes: the Birds factory has gone as have many other of the occupiers, with new names having taken their places. Some remain, the Spring Gardens pub amongst them, although with a different landlord, and George Snook's factory.

Mother (Elsie) used to spend a lot of time there as a child and had some interesting memories of the area, including Milk Street and other nearby thoroughfares. She could remember one corner of the factory with a trap-door in the floor, above a sheer drop into the river Rea which ran directly underneath at that point".

A similar memory about the trapdoor was also related to me, Elsie's youngest child. I also recall her claim that her grandfather made not only thimbles but also bicycles. That always seemed a strange combination to me! Unfortunately, direct memories of the factory died with her, some 25 years ago.

The factory must have employed some of George's children who assumed ownership on his death in 1923. His stepson, George Thomas Tovey , described as a thimble maker, presumably worked there as well. I was surprised to learn some years ago that George Thomas's wife, Rebecca Brown, was also an employee. Whether that was before the unhappy marriage or, even, after the breakup which I describe above – or even both – I don't know. What happened to the factory after George's death, I don't know either. Was it kept on and if so how long did it survive? Presumably further research into George's sons and the directories of the time would tell us.


As I say, just a few fragments.

Chris
 
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