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Short Stirling Bomber

A

Ann B

Guest
These photographs are dated 10. 11. 12. 31 03.1943. Taken by Harold G. Lansdowne of 96 Golden Hillock Rd. Birmingham. Taken just before leaving for a mission from Longbridge. John Weston , an engineer who worked on the Short Stirling, also went on the mission. They could boast 5 targets hit. It would be good to post these photographs on an appropriate site. Any suggestions?

Ann
 

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Jim,
Although they are taken at Longbridge, so local airfield, but the R.A.F. crew won't be. It would be good to find a site where perhaps these air crew could be identified. On the back of the photos shows R Gunner , Navigator etc.
Ann
 
Ann,

great photos but you forgot to ask me if there were any rllies of mine on there! :D I say this as I've just learnt today that my dad was in a bomber group with the RAF, but I can't see him or anyone I know on your photos. And as an aircraft freak I thank you for sharing them with us.
 
Lencops,
Could you perhaps post them on that site? Someone, somewhere will be related to one of those guys. Someone will be pleased to spot them.
Ann
 
Graham,

I didn't have to ask, because I recognised your uncle's brother's sister's husband, by her second marriage, (or was it her third) at the back of the plane cleaning the windows.

Ann
 
Lencops,

That's great. I hope someone on your site knows them.

Ann
 
Graham,

I hope you find out more about your dad's time as a bomber with the R.A.F. It was so exciting for me to find out more about Jacques Herbots, I can understand the'buzz' you are getting at the moment.
Ann
 
Wonderful pictures, Ann.

The RAF Commands forum would be another possible destination for these. https://www.rafcommands.com/forum/index.php

Thanks to the wonders of the internet, one can find out what happened to this aircraft - 218 Squadron, lost on 12th/13th May 1943, ditched in the North Sea after being damaged over Duisburg. See https://www.lostbombers.co.uk/bomber.php?id=9666 for further details of its short history. One has to wonder whether any of the men in your March photographs were crew members when the aircraft was lost in May. It has to be a strong probability. By no means all those in the photographs were aircrew, but most were.

Chris
 
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Yes. what you say, is sadly a strong possibility. The first photograph is only crew. On back of photo R. Gunner, Navigator, W. Operator (Front), F. Engineer, Skipper, Bombadier, M. U. Gunner.
My sister in law's father was on this flight. He was an engineer at Longbridge.
The photo with more men on is 'air and ground'.
I suppose we knew it would have been lost, as I understand it there are no Short Sterlings still in existence.
 
Thank you for the link. I have printed it out and will send it to my sister in law. So it went down in May the same year. One photo is showing 31. 04 1943. A date that doesn't exist. Anyway it wasn't long after.
Ann
 
Ann B, Have posted Short Stirlig Bomber photos on my exmilitarymates site, will pass on any replies.
 
Thank you Lencops. Good to know they are now on a relevant site, having been in a box in a loft for years.
Ann
 
Here is more info Reference the Short Stirling in Photo: Stirling Mark III HA-K 218 Squadron, Downham Market. Did not return from raid to Duisburg on 13 May, 1943. Crashed in North Sea. Aircraft was delivered to 218 Sqdn between Dec/43 - Feb/43.

Took off from Downham Market @0044hrs on 13May,1943 for Duisburg, Germany. Hit by flak and crashed into North Sea. No survivors. Crew: Pilot P/O R.J. Bryans-RCAF; Flt Engineer Sgt F.B.Holmes-RAF; Navigator Sgt. J.R. Thompson-RAF; air bomber Sgt J.Davies-RAF; Wireless Operator Sgt.J.Fitton-RAF; Air gunner Sgt. K.L.Garman-RCAF; Air Gunner Sgt K.G.Money-RAF Sgt Fitton's boby recovered from North Sea on 1 Aug/43. (Sgt Garman was an American from Republic, Kansas serving with the RCAF.) Not known if this crew were ones in any of the photos. - Wayne
 
Wayne,

Thank you for the additional information. I now know that the pilot on these photographs did survive the war. My sister in law spoke to her older sister, who remembered that her dad exchanged christmas cards with the pilot for a good number of years, after the pilot went out to Canada. So perhaps none of this crew were on that last flight.

Ann
 
wtagg said:
Here is more info Reference the Short Stirling in Photo: Stirling Mark III HA-K 218 Squadron, Downham Market. Did not return from raid to Duisburg on 13 May, 1943. Crashed in North Sea. Aircraft was delivered to 218 Sqdn between Dec/43 - Feb/43.

Took off from Downham Market @0044hrs on 13May,1943 for Duisburg, Germany. Hit by flak and crashed into North Sea. No survivors. Crew: Pilot P/O R.J. Bryans-RCAF; Flt Engineer Sgt F.B.Holmes-RAF; Navigator Sgt. J.R. Thompson-RAF; air bomber Sgt J.Davies-RAF; Wireless Operator Sgt.J.Fitton-RAF; Air gunner Sgt. K.L.Garman-RCAF; Air Gunner Sgt K.G.Money-RAF Sgt Fitton's boby recovered from North Sea on 1 Aug/43. (Sgt Garman was an American from Republic, Kansas serving with the RCAF.) Not known if this crew were ones in any of the photos. - Wayne
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The above must be one of the last long-range usage of Stirlings, as most of them were retired from bombing operations by December 1943. The Stirling was described as an excellent aircraft to fly, with few vices, but suffered from being unable to climb much about 15000ft with a full load, and was also slow compared with the Lancaster and Halifax. However, Stirlings served until the end of the War as glider-tugs, mine-layers, troop transports and so on. Sadly not one flying example survives.

When I first started work as an aircraft-mad youth, I got pally with a bloke I worked with who was a rear-gunner ('Tail-end Charlie') on Stirlings, and he said he felt much safer in a Stirling that in either the Halifax or the Lanc, as the Stirling was much more manoeverable than either of the latter, and able to out-dive and out-turn Luftwaffe night-fighters. It was also extremely strong and able to absorb a huge amount of battle-damage. I can (just) recall seeing a Stirling parked on an airfield (can't recall which one) when as a wee lad we drove up the old A1.

Hope this is of interest.

Big Gee
 
And because it couldn't climb, that is exactly why it was always shot down.

Ann
 
Ann B said:
And because it couldn't climb, that is exactly why it was always shot down.

Ann
Click to expand...

Ann,

I hope you're not implying that every Stirling ever despatched upon a sortie to Germany was shot down. The survival of a bomber over enemy territory depended upon many, many factors, including the ability to climb to an altitude at which flak became less effective. In this respect, the Stirling was at a disadvantage compared with the Halifax and Lancaster. It is true that the losses of Stirlings became unacceptable, which is why they were withdrawn from regular operations over the Continent. But later in the War, with the development of radar-sighted flak and vast improvements in Luftwaffe night-fighter technology, just about any bomber was a potential death-trap. A loss of more than about 5% of a bombing force in any one raid over Germany was considered disastrous. Yet they pressed on. The Luftwaffe more or less abandoned the bombing of the UK for these very reasons - we too had highly-efficient AA and night-fighters.

One of the most astonishing facts about WW2 is that Bomber Command personnel never received a campaign medal for their efforts - even before the War ended there were serious doubts as to the morality of blanket-bombing, yet there is little doubt that Air Marshall Harris' policy of hammering Germany at every opportunity shortened the War.

Sorry, bit of a bee in my bonnet about this aspect of WW2.

Regards,

Big Gee
 
Big Gee,

Air Chief Marshall Harris did not set the bombing policies. The Air Council under Lord Portal did that. Harris has for too long been blamed for 'his policies'. Harris carried out the Air Council directives and he fought tooth and nail for 'his boys'. When he was critised by his bosses for not carrying out certain instructions he reminded them that they could remove him from office when ever they liked. They didn't.
Ultimately the blame, if you can call it that, for the area bombing strategy lay at the feet of the government of the day. That is why the politicians of today won't allow the striking of a campaign medal for the thousands of brave boys of Bomber Command- it is convenient to let people go on thinking that ACM Harris invented the policy.

Spooner
 
Ann B said:
Not Implying, stating a fact, that very few came back.

Ann
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Total loss of Stirlings for the entire War, in all capacities, was 913 aircraft out of 2383 built, or about 38%. However, I believe this figure also includes losses of aircraft by training squadrons, which flew them after they were withdrawn from bombing operations.

To say that 'they were always shot down' isn't quite the same as saying 'very few came back'.

Big Gee
 
spooner said:
Big Gee,

Air Chief Marshall Harris did not set the bombing policies. The Air Council under Lord Portal did that. Harris has for too long been blamed for 'his policies'. Harris carried out the Air Council directives and he fought tooth and nail for 'his boys'. When he was critised by his bosses for not carrying out certain instructions he reminded them that they could remove him from office when ever they liked. They didn't.
Ultimately the blame, if you can call it that, for the area bombing strategy lay at the feet of the government of the day. That is why the politicians of today won't allow the striking of a campaign medal for the thousands of brave boys of Bomber Command- it is convenient to let people go on thinking that ACM Harris invented the policy.

Spooner
Click to expand...

Sorry, but you're not quite right. Harris's stated and fiercely-defended policy was area bombing - he was adamant and confident that Germany could be beated by destroying its cities piecemeal. Even when it was obvious he was wrong he still stoutly defended this policy and made himself highly unpopular as a result. He called precision raids 'panacea targets', and was highly reluctant to allow the Dam Busters raid to go ahead. However, he was forced to toe the line, policy-wise, and to go after such targets as oil-production, submarine pens, railway networks, etc.

Although he was originally a great supporter of the policy of area-bombing German cities to oblivion, towards the end of the war Churchill became somewhat less enthusiastic about this, especially following the very severe raids on Dresden and Berlin, which aroused a good deal of criticism and even moral outrage in some quarters at the time. Churchill's former support for Harris gradually melted away. Personally, I think Harris did what he was employed to do and did it to the best of his ability, even though it cost the lives of 65000 men. After the war his 'old lags', as he called them, didn't offer much in the way of criticism of their old boss.

Big Gee
 
It’s done with! This silly navel gazing by whoever, then or now, is non-productive. If the other side had won do you think that they would be doing this now or ever. Who is to say that critics back then were right. Their points of view were never put to the test. It was all out war which requires all out measures…maximum effort. Heaven forbid that we would have lost it all for the sake of doing a little bit more. Even when it seemed that the war was all but won there was the thought that the Germans had been working on the atomic bomb…similar to the allies…and maybe versions of the V2 or V1 might have been able to deliver it. No one knew for certain anyway. I wonder, if they had managed to succeed and drop an ‘A bomb’ on Britain, would they have had the same critique from within. Hmmm.
The British and Canadian air operations were at night because there was less chance of being shot down in darkness. This meant that larger areas were bombed to achieve damage to facilities in cities and perhaps terror was one of the goals. Does it matter?…the object was to bring the war to a successful conclusion from our point of view. How could anyone in charge back then know if the measures taken were excessive or not. There are always going to be critics.
The American air effort was in the daytime at high altitude in higher performance B17 aircraft albeit with a lower payload. At the start they paid dearly for this. Their objective was to accurately bomb ‘strategic’ targets using their accurate high altitude bomb sights. When the P51 fighter was improved with the Merlin engine and large fuel tanks, making it possible to provide fighter escort to the target and back, the writing was on the wall for Germany. Which was fortunate considering the machines that the German engineers had developed .
Anyway our lot, with much bravery, managed to avoid defeat…weather or not we won anything is entirely another matter methinks.
 
Just a small point re the above. The Stirling never operated from Longbridge. They were built at longbridge, The completed fuselarges, wings and engines were taken by road to the Marston Green shadow factory where the aircraft were assembled. The aircraft were then towed across the railway line on to the airfield at Elmdon (Birmingham Airport) and test flights carried out. The airfield at Longbridge was far too small to allow such a large aircraft to take off. the last aircraft flown from Cofton Hackett (the airfield alongside Longbridge) were the Hurricane IIb aircraft built there in 1940. Once testing was complete the aircraft would be delivered to the RAF.
hope this may be of interest.
 
Hi Ann,

I am the association historian for No.218 (Gold Coast) Squadron. Unfortunately the thumbnail attachments I am unable to view. I would very much like to see the photo's for possible inclusion in my second book on the squadrons activities in WW2.

Can any kind soul help me out ?

Steve
 
Steve,

Unfortunately these images, together with many others, were lost during a Forum hacking disaster some years ago. Many Forum images have been replaced by their owners but it does seem that Ann B's membership has lapsed in which case replacement of these seems unlikely, very regrettably. Let's hope that another member took a copy of them and/or can offer something similar.

Chris
 
ChrisM said:
Steve,

Unfortunately these images, together with many others, were lost during a Forum hacking disaster some years ago. Many Forum images have been replaced by their owners but it does seem that Ann B's membership has lapsed in which case replacement of these seems unlikely, very regrettably. Let's hope that another member took a copy of them and/or can offer something similar.

Chris
Click to expand...
See a post here
 
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