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Sherbourne Mill / Baldwin & Sons Paper Mill

I

illumina3

knowlegable brummie
Does anyone have a photo (preferably old) of Sherbourne Paper Mill in Kings Norton?

Ideally I'm looking for a 19th century image, but anything will do if it's of the buildings from that period.

My great great grandfather William Davis worked and died in an accident there.

thanks in advance!
 
Not a photograph, but an artists impression. It was apparently called Sherborne mill because Baldwin's previous premises were in Sherborne St.

s_paper_mill.jpg
 
Actually, if you can use Google Earth, that area is in 3D and you can see the modern version of the above view. Junction House by the bridge and the bridge are still there and a part or two of the factory building. There is a bit more between the church and the viewpoint now but a path shown on the 1890 survey is still there. It runs from the bridge and past soccer pitches now. You will have to rotate the GE view to have N at the bottom. Worth a look.
 
harryhibberd said:
Has anyone got any family history data on these Baldwins who owned this factory?
Click to expand...
Hi, I've just spotted your query from three years ago. Are you still interested? My great grandfather Thomas Bird Smith served his apprenticeship at his uncle James Baldwin's paper mill at Kings Norton. TB Smith's mother was Mary Baldwin. I understand it was expected that TBS would go on to take over management of the mill, but instead he left in about 1862 to start up his own business with two friends (later Sir) Benjamin Stone MP and Frederick Knight. They formed Smith Stone & Knight Ltd. which went on to own several paper mills in Birmingham and Bristol. If you're still interested, I can try to dig out any research I did on the Baldwins - I can't remember how successful it was.
 
PPSSmith said:
Hi, I've just spotted your query from three years ago. Are you still interested? My great grandfather Thomas Bird Smith served his apprenticeship at his uncle James Baldwin's paper mill at Kings Norton. TB Smith's mother was Mary Baldwin. I understand it was expected that TBS would go on to take over management of the mill, but instead he left in about 1862 to start up his own business with two friends (later Sir) Benjamin Stone MP and Frederick Knight. They formed Smith Stone & Knight Ltd. which went on to own several paper mills in Birmingham and Bristol. If you're still interested, I can try to dig out any research I did on the Baldwins - I can't remember how successful it was.
Click to expand...
Which Mary Baldwin was TBS's mother? There are several in the Baldwin family tree. I would love to know this, as I have been doing academic research on the Baldwins and have yet to properly understand the connection between TBS and James Baldwin. I thought his mother was Ann, father Thomas (per Birmingham CofE baptism record 15 Feb 1836 on Ancestry). Sounds like I have missed something that you can perhaps help me with! I have an article about James Baldwin (the founding paper maker) coming out this month in The Local Historian (https://www.balh.org.uk/thelocalhistorian - not there yet).
 
MichelleC said:
Which Mary Baldwin was TBS's mother? There are several in the Baldwin family tree. I would love to know this, as I have been doing academic research on the Baldwins and have yet to properly understand the connection between TBS and James Baldwin. I thought his mother was Ann, father Thomas (per Birmingham CofE baptism record 15 Feb 1836 on Ancestry). Sounds like I have missed something that you can perhaps help me with! I have an article about James Baldwin (the founding paper maker) coming out this month in The Local Historian (https://www.balh.org.uk/thelocalhistorian - not there yet).
Click to expand...
Hi Michelle, My apologies, I always seem to get my Anns and Marys mixed up. I believe my gg grandmother Ann Baldwin (mother of TBS) was born 29/08/1794 in Solihull, the daughter of Joseph and Ann Baldwin. I believe that James Baldwin the papermaker was born 27/05/1801 in Solihull to the same parents. There were numerous other children born to Joseph and Ann Baldwin in Solihull.
Ann married first to Francis Bird, a widower on 16/04/1817 at St Martins, Birmingham. Francis (late of Ashted) died on 05/09/1832 and was buried at St Barnabus Chapel, Erdington. Thomas Bird Smith was born 19/01/1836 to Thomas Smith (silversmith) and Ann Smith of Regent Place/Caroline Street. His middle name came from Ann's first husband. Thomas Smith (master silversmith) also appears as her husband on Ann's death certificate in 1866, but otherwise I can find no trace of him. When Ann died on 22/07/1866 she was buried with Francis Bird at Erdington. For some unknown reason, her grandson Thomas Parker Smith (papermaker) was also buried with them eighty years later.
I've found Ann Smith and her son Thomas Smith (Printer's compositor and then Clerk at paper mill) in the 1951 (74 Newhall Street) and 1861 (Broad Meadow Cottage, Kings Norton) Censuses.
James Baldwin papermaker of Bredon House appears in the censuses for 1841, 1851, 1861 and 1871. In the 1851 Census appears his son James Baldwin (Clerk, 15 years old). I assume this is your James Baldwin - I'm sorry is this is a contradiction of your research - You are probably right, and I've got it wrong.
I'd love to find out more about Thomas Smith (master silversmith), but I don't think he featured significantly in the lives of Ann Baldwin/Bird/Smith and Thomas Bird Smith.
I'd also love to discover why my grandfather christened Peter Seymour Smith was given the middle name Seymour. There were good reasons for the middle names given to his numerous siblings. Interestingly, my father was christened Thomas Bird Nigel Seymour Smith, thus prolonging the Francis Bird connection.
I suspect that this line of Baldwins is separate from the other line of Baldwins (originating in Yorkshire?) who were Birmingham industrialists from whom came Stanley Baldwin the prime minister, and also the connection with the McDonald sisters.
Please excuse my ramblings, and probably my numerous errors. Apologies for any contradictions. I'd be pleased to receive any corrections to my research.
I will try to link up to your article when it appears - I look forward to reading it.
Best wishes, Peter Seymour Smith (born 07/01/1951)
 
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Hi Michelle, One extra piece of information that might interest you. My uncle died recently and I've been in charge of clearing his house. Amongst several interesting old ledgers etc. is a record book entitled Baldwin & Son - Furnish Book, given by Mr ML Howlett when King's Norton Paper Mill went into voluntary liquidation - 27th May 1965. It records numerous paper-making recipes used from 1866 to 1880, along with sample scraps. e.g. one recipe reads: Buff Sugar Feby 28 1866 - 2 baskets Shed Ropes, 3 baskets Sacking, 6 lbs Bleach Little Bristol, 8 lbs Alum, 1 Bucket Size, 1 1/2 Box Plaster & 1 Box Clay, 3 bowls Ocher. Clean scrap Papers.
It's an interesting document.
All the other documents and books relate to the various early Smith Stone & Knight mills.
Cheers, Peter SS.
 
PPSSmith said:
Hi Michelle, My apologies, I always seem to get my Anns and Marys mixed up. I believe my gg grandmother Ann Baldwin (mother of TBS) was born 29/08/1794 in Solihull, the daughter of Joseph and Ann Baldwin. I believe that James Baldwin the papermaker was born 27/05/1801 in Solihull to the same parents. There were numerous other children born to Joseph and Ann Baldwin in Solihull.
Ann married first to Francis Bird, a widower on 16/04/1817 at St Martins, Birmingham. Francis (late of Ashted) died on 05/09/1832 and was buried at St Barnabus Chapel, Erdington. Thomas Bird Smith was born 19/01/1836 to Thomas Smith (silversmith) and Ann Smith of Regent Place/Caroline Street. His middle name came from Ann's first husband. Thomas Smith (master silversmith) also appears as her husband on Ann's death certificate in 1866, but otherwise I can find no trace of him. When Ann died on 22/07/1866 she was buried with Francis Bird at Erdington. For some unknown reason, her grandson Thomas Parker Smith (papermaker) was also buried with them eighty years later.
I've found Ann Smith and her son Thomas Smith (Printer's compositor and then Clerk at paper mill) in the 1951 (74 Newhall Street) and 1861 (Broad Meadow Cottage, Kings Norton) Censuses.
James Baldwin papermaker of Bredon House appears in the censuses for 1841, 1851, 1861 and 1871. In the 1951 Census appears his son James Baldwin (Clerk, 15 years old). I assume this is your James Baldwin - I'm sorry is this is a contradiction of your research - You are probably right, and I've got it wrong.
I'd love to find out more about Thomas Smith (master silversmith), but I don't think he featured significantly in the lives of Ann Baldwin/Bird/Smith and Thomas Bird Smith.
I'd also love to discover why my grandfather was christened Peter Seymour Smith was given the middle name Seymour. There were good reasons for the middle names given to his numerous siblings. Interestingly, my father was christened Thomas Bird Nigel Seymour Smith, =thus prolonging the Francis Bird connection.
I suspect that this line of Baldwins is separate from the other line of Baldwins (originating in Yorkshire?) who were Birmingham industrialists from whom came Stanley Baldwin the prime minister, and also the connection with the McDonald sisters.
Please excuse my ramblings, and probably my numerous errors. Apologies for any contradictions. I'd be pleased to receive any corrections to my research.
I will try to link up to your article when it appears - I look forward to reading it.
Best wishes, Peter Seymour Smith (born 07/01/1951)
Click to expand...
Peter, this is absolutely fascinating! I'm actually rather thrilled to have "met" you here :)

I am researching the Victorian James Baldwin (1801-1871), in which I have been helped by a very nice man who seems to be his last direct male descendant, who has some family papers and portraits. (There is nothing of great significance in the Birmingham Library.) Interestingly, your Ann Baldwin did not appear on a family tree drawn up around WW1, and she has not yet made it into my list of Joseph and Ann's children. The Baldwin siblings we have collectively traced are Sophia (1785-1854), Samuel (1786-1829), Charlotte (1787-1827), Thomas (1789-1870), John (1790-1791), Mary (1791-1866), Joseph (b.1793), Elizabeth (1796-1842), Robert (1797-1819), Sarah (1799-1882), James (1801-1871 - my man), and Benjamin (1803-1853). It sounds like the missing Ann should appear between Joseph and Elizabeth.

I was also wondering why Seymour cropped up in your family so much (I've been working on TBS's tree to try to figure out the Baldwin connection), and I'm sorry you don't know why. The Baldwins certainly passed on maiden names as middle names throughout the generations, which is really very helpful! I would guess that Seymour would be a maiden name in your family at some point. (The Baldwins also have a lot of cousin marriages.) Thank you so much for explaining about Ann's first marriage to Mr Bird and then subsequent marriage to Mr Smith. I had been assuming that Bird was a maiden name too. I shall investigate Ann and I suspect everything may just fall into place :)

It has been family lore in this Baldwin family that they are related to Stanley Baldwin the PM (ironmaster family) but, as you say, there actually seems to be no connection between the two (or at least, if there is, it must be way, way back).

Baldwin's Kings Norton mill became an independent entity in 1926. Interestingly, by 1935, Oscar Stone (Sir Benjamin Stone's son) was managing it, while the Baldwin family still had some fingers in that pie. So there seems to have been some ongoing relationship between the two firms, perhaps resting on long-ago family relationships.

- Michelle
 
PPSSmith said:
Hi Michelle, One extra piece of information that might interest you. My uncle died recently and I've been in charge of clearing his house. Amongst several interesting old ledgers etc. is a record book entitled Baldwin & Son - Furnish Book, given by Mr ML Howlett when King's Norton Paper Mill went into voluntary liquidation - 27th May 1965. It records numerous paper-making recipes used from 1866 to 1880, along with sample scraps. e.g. one recipe reads: Buff Sugar Feby 28 1866 - 2 baskets Shed Ropes, 3 baskets Sacking, 6 lbs Bleach Little Bristol, 8 lbs Alum, 1 Bucket Size, 1 1/2 Box Plaster & 1 Box Clay, 3 bowls Ocher. Clean scrap Papers.
It's an interesting document.
All the other documents and books relate to the various early Smith Stone & Knight mills.
Cheers, Peter SS.
Click to expand...
Oh goodness! How wonderful! What are you going to do with those papers? There are literally no business records remaining/accessible for James Baldwin & Sons Ltd. I even talked to the Official Receiver, who told me all the business records had been destroyed. My Baldwin descendant contact only has some family papers.

Can I please encourage you to deposit/loan your SSK papers with the archive at Birmingham Library when you are ready? I was in touch with Smurfit Kappa, which says they "might" have some SSK papers in storage somewhere but were not very helpful. If it hadn't been for the pandemic, I might have been more persistant.
 
MichelleC said:
Peter, this is absolutely fascinating! I'm actually rather thrilled to have "met" you here :)

I am researching the Victorian James Baldwin (1801-1871), in which I have been helped by a very nice man who seems to be his last direct male descendant, who has some family papers and portraits. (There is nothing of great significance in the Birmingham Library.) Interestingly, your Ann Baldwin did not appear on a family tree drawn up around WW1, and she has not yet made it into my list of Joseph and Ann's children. The Baldwin siblings we have collectively traced are Sophia (1785-1854), Samuel (1786-1829), Charlotte (1787-1827), Thomas (1789-1870), John (1790-1791), Mary (1791-1866), Joseph (b.1793), Elizabeth (1796-1842), Robert (1797-1819), Sarah (1799-1882), James (1801-1871 - my man), and Benjamin (1803-1853). It sounds like the missing Ann should appear between Joseph and Elizabeth.

I was also wondering why Seymour cropped up in your family so much (I've been working on TBS's tree to try to figure out the Baldwin connection), and I'm sorry you don't know why. The Baldwins certainly passed on maiden names as middle names throughout the generations, which is really very helpful! I would guess that Seymour would be a maiden name in your family at some point. (The Baldwins also have a lot of cousin marriages.) Thank you so much for explaining about Ann's first marriage to Mr Bird and then subsequent marriage to Mr Smith. I had been assuming that Bird was a maiden name too. I shall investigate Ann and I suspect everything may just fall into place :)

It has been family lore in this Baldwin family that they are related to Stanley Baldwin the PM (ironmaster family) but, as you say, there actually seems to be no connection between the two (or at least, if there is, it must be way, way back).

Baldwin's Kings Norton mill became an independent entity in 1926. Interestingly, by 1935, Oscar Stone (Sir Benjamin Stone's son) was managing it, while the Baldwin family still had some fingers in that pie. So there seems to have been some ongoing relationship between the two firms, perhaps resting on long-ago family relationships.

- Michelle
Click to expand...
Hi Michelle,
I've been trying to remember how I've come to believe that my gg grandmother was born a Baldwin. I can't remember anything in writing, but I remember being informed that TB Smith was apprenticed to his uncle James Baldwin at his Kings Norton paper mill. These family traditions are usually based on something, but they often get mangled with supposition along the way. I am as bad at that as anyone. However, I am reassured by the 1851 and 1861 censuses stating that Thomas Smith (son of Ann, born in Solihull) was a printer's compositor and then clerk at Kings Norton paper mill. Also the recorded marriage of Francis Bird to Ann Baldwin at St Martins on 16/04/1817, witnessed by John and Mary Baldwin gives further support, as our Ann Smith is buried with Francis Bird at St Barnabus.
Ann Baldwin's baptism recorded for 19/08/1794 is a close match with the other Solihull baptism records of Joseph and Ann Baldwin's children, including James Baldwin on 27/05/1801.
The only Seymour connection I can find is that Howard Seymour Wynn was a director of SS&K for many years, and I believe he was about the same age as my grandfather Peter Seymour Smith. It could be just a coincidence, but it's an interesting one.
After WW1, Smith Stone & Knight ran into financial difficulties which took a while to sort out. I understand that during that period, there was something of a falling out between the Smiths and the two Stone brothers. That might explain why Oscar Stone was managing the Kings Norton mill, which was nothing to do with SS&K. I understand it was touch and go as to which family would take over senior management of SS&K.
I think the ledgers should certainly end up with the archive at Birmingham Library. However, not just yet. I want to enjoy studying them myself for some time yet. But I'd be horrified at the thought they might be lost at any time in the future, after I've managed to collect them together. The records I have for SS&K are almost complete mill accounts from the 1860s through to the 1930s. I also have TB Smiths many letters to his fiancee Ann Parker who lived in Lothersdale in Yorkshire until she and her sister married in a joint wedding to TB Smith and JB Stone. I've transcribed many of the letters, but there's dozens more to work through when I have time. There is also TB Smith's household ledger which I need to study further. At present I'd be happy for others to study the collection, but I'd like to keep it for my own use for a while.
Cheers, Peter SS.
 
Hi Michelle,
We have to consider the possibility there were two couples named Joseph and Ann Baldwin baptising their children in Solihull in the 1790s. That would be most unhelpful of them.
Peter Seymour Smith's brothers had middle names including Chippendale, Mattock, and Parker, all of which come from Ann & Jane Parker's Lothersdale family. But the Parker family is incredibly well researched, and there is no Seymour connection to be found there. My guess is that it comes from the Smith or Baldwin side, but I doubt now that I'll ever discover it.
A superficial scan through the SS&K records suggests that £100,000 went missing from the accounts in 1924. Shortly afterwards a director's meeting agenda includes a proposal to authorise a police prosecution for fraud. Sounds juicy!
Please forgive my amateurish enthusiasm and assumptions.
Cheers, Peter SS.
 
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PPSSmith said:
Hi Michelle,
We have to consider the possibility there were two couples named Joseph and Ann Baldwin baptising their children in Solihull in the 1790s. That would be most unhelpful of them.
Peter Seymour Smith's brothers had middle names including Chippendale, Mattock, and Parker, all of which come from Ann & Jane Parker's Lothersdale family. But the Parker family is incredibly well researched, and there is no Seymour connection to be found there. My guess is that it comes from the Smith or Baldwin side, but I doubt now that I'll ever discover it.
A superficial scan through the SS&K records suggests that £100,000 wen missing from the accounts in 1924. Shortly afterwards a director's meeting agenda includes a proposal to authorise a police prosecution for fraud. Sounds juicy!
Please forgive my amateurish enthusiasm and assumptions.
Cheers, Peter SS.
Click to expand...
Common and repeating names are the bane of every historian's life, aren't they. There are so many James Baldwins in that family tree - including in the same generation - that I always have to cite them with their dates. Seymour does appear in the Baldwin tree, appearing first (that I have found so far) among the great-grandsons of James Baldwin (1801-1871). The first was Harry Seymour Baldwin (1882 - died as an infant) and the second was Harold Seymour Baldwin (1893-1954). Seymour then skips a generation, and reappears in the living generation. It's all very curious. The answer may turn up eventually!

I am not quite sure how to connect bilaterally off the forum (if you'd be interested in doing so) but I'd be happy to let you have a look at my Baldwin family tree on Ancestry if that would be of interest. We may have bored everyone else enough ;)
-Michelle
 
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PPSSmith said:
Hi Michelle, My apologies, I always seem to get my Anns and Marys mixed up. I believe my gg grandmother Ann Baldwin (mother of TBS) was born 29/08/1794 in Solihull, the daughter of Joseph and Ann Baldwin. I believe that James Baldwin the papermaker was born 27/05/1801 in Solihull to the same parents. There were numerous other children born to Joseph and Ann Baldwin in Solihull.
Ann married first to Francis Bird, a widower on 16/04/1817 at St Martins, Birmingham. Francis (late of Ashted) died on 05/09/1832 and was buried at St Barnabus Chapel, Erdington. Thomas Bird Smith was born 19/01/1836 to Thomas Smith (silversmith) and Ann Smith of Regent Place/Caroline Street. His middle name came from Ann's first husband. Thomas Smith (master silversmith) also appears as her husband on Ann's death certificate in 1866, but otherwise I can find no trace of him. When Ann died on 22/07/1866 she was buried with Francis Bird at Erdington. For some unknown reason, her grandson Thomas Parker Smith (papermaker) was also buried with them eighty years later.
I've found Ann Smith and her son Thomas Smith (Printer's compositor and then Clerk at paper mill) in the 1951 (74 Newhall Street) and 1861 (Broad Meadow Cottage, Kings Norton) Censuses.
James Baldwin papermaker of Bredon House appears in the censuses for 1841, 1851, 1861 and 1871. In the 1851 Census appears his son James Baldwin (Clerk, 15 years old). I assume this is your James Baldwin - I'm sorry is this is a contradiction of your research - You are probably right, and I've got it wrong.
I'd love to find out more about Thomas Smith (master silversmith), but I don't think he featured significantly in the lives of Ann Baldwin/Bird/Smith and Thomas Bird Smith.
I'd also love to discover why my grandfather christened Peter Seymour Smith was given the middle name Seymour. There were good reasons for the middle names given to his numerous siblings. Interestingly, my father was christened Thomas Bird Nigel Seymour Smith, thus prolonging the Francis Bird connection.
I suspect that this line of Baldwins is separate from the other line of Baldwins (originating in Yorkshire?) who were Birmingham industrialists from whom came Stanley Baldwin the prime minister, and also the connection with the McDonald sisters.
Please excuse my ramblings, and probably my numerous errors. Apologies for any contradictions. I'd be pleased to receive any corrections to my research.
I will try to link up to your article when it appears - I look forward to reading it.
Best wishes, Peter Seymour Smith (born 07/01/1951)
Click to expand...
Here's another connection: 74 Newhall St was James Baldwin's address in the 1840s. From Aris's Birmingham Gazette, July 10, 1848 - the leasehold of the property was for sale:
“All that roomy, substantial, and excellently situated DWELLING HOUSE and PREMISES, with Manufactory, Court, Stable and Offices, being No. 74, in Newhall-street, occupied by Mr. James Baldwin and his under-tenants. / The above is held under an original Lease for a term of which 19 years were unexpired at Lady-day last, subject to 1l. 1s. per annum ground-rent, and they are let on a repairing lease to Mr. Baldwin for the whole term (less one day) at 30l. per annum.”
 
Thank you Michelle,
That's a very useful addition. According to Pigot's 1835 Directory, at 74 Newhall Street were:
Smith & Son, Gilt toy maker, Pearl ornament maker, Pearl button manufacturer and Black ornament maker. I assume, but cannot prove that this may have been the father and grandfather of our TBS.
In the 1851 census, at 74 Newhall Street are Ann Smith (55 Proprietor of Houses) and her son Thomas Smith (15 Printer's Compositor). Presumably TBS was working for his uncle James Baldwin. I think Ann was inclined to understate her age by a few years - A small but common sin.
Also in 1835 Pigot's Directory, at 73 Newhall Street (just over the road) James Baldwin was listed as mill maker, tincture maker, paper box maker, engraver/copper-plate printer and letter-press printer.
Cheers, PPSS.
 
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Hello my mother is Victoria Baldwin whos bloodline is relative and my mother still here says she has the photo of the paper mill and remembers visiting when she was a child. Her father was Sidney Walter Baldwin married to Pauline Peutherer. I have asked her to sign up to this forum.
 
hello KHudenbald and welcome to the forum...we would love to see that photograph your mom has and her memories...many thanks

lyn
 
Hi and thank you, I think there are several of us who would love to hear from your mother, to read her memories of Sherborne Mill and to see her photo. Please do encourage her to get in touch.
 
VBALDWIN said:
Hi i am the daughter of Walter Sydney Baldwin who i think was the last Baldwin to manage the paperworks. My father died in a car accident when i was young. After his death i was told it was managed by Lesley Francis before being wound up. I do have some paperwork here regarding this somewhere
Click to expand...
 
Im actually trying to track down a diary referred to in the following book which details the day to day life of my line of the Baldwins...wud be my gf or maybe ggf i think. If anyone knows where i can locate the diary pls let me know.

Servants: A Downstairs History Of Britain From The Nineteenth Century To Modern Times​

By Lucy Lethbridge​

 
VBALDWIN said:
Im actually trying to track down a diary referred to in the following book which details the day to day life of my line of the Baldwins...wud be my gf or maybe ggf i think. If anyone knows where i can locate the diary pls let me know.

Servants: A Downstairs History Of Britain From The Nineteenth Century To Modern Times​

By Lucy Lethbridg​

Click to expand...
 

Attachments

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This was my great great grandfather. The servant Alice Osborne wrote the diary quoted in the book mentioned above. You will note in the Census he lists his occupation as paper manufacturer
 
VBALDWIN said:
This was my great great grandfather. The servant Alice Osborne wrote the diary quoted in the book mentioned above. You will note in the Census he lists his occupation as paper manufacturer
Click to expand...
Hi VBALDWIN, It's good to hear from you. I'm the great grandson of TB Smith, who was apprenticed from about 1851 to about 1861 to his uncle James Baldwin, the founder of Baldwin and Son, after which TBS left to start his own business, SS&K, with two friends. I guess that TBS was deeply involved at the very beginning of the Sherborne Mill. I have recently acquired records from the start-up of SS&K, and a papermaking recipe book from Kings Norton Mill. These will eventually end up on loan to the Birmingham Library archives. Cheers, Peter SS.
 
H
MichelleC said:
Peter, this is absolutely fascinating! I'm actually rather thrilled to have "met" you here :)

I am researching the Victorian James Baldwin (1801-1871), in which I have been helped by a very nice man who seems to be his last direct male descendant, who has some family papers and portraits. (There is nothing of great significance in the Birmingham Library.) Interestingly, your Ann Baldwin did not appear on a family tree drawn up around WW1, and she has not yet made it into my list of Joseph and Ann's children. The Baldwin siblings we have collectively traced are Sophia (1785-1854), Samuel (1786-1829), Charlotte (1787-1827), Thomas (1789-1870), John (1790-1791), Mary (1791-1866), Joseph (b.1793), Elizabeth (1796-1842), Robert (1797-1819), Sarah (1799-1882), James (1801-1871 - my man), and Benjamin (1803-1853). It sounds like the missing Ann should appear between Joseph and Elizabeth.

I was also wondering why Seymour cropped up in your family so much (I've been working on TBS's tree to try to figure out the Baldwin connection), and I'm sorry you don't know why. The Baldwins certainly passed on maiden names as middle names throughout the generations, which is really very helpful! I would guess that Seymour would be a maiden name in your family at some point. (The Baldwins also have a lot of cousin marriages.) Thank you so much for explaining about Ann's first marriage to Mr Bird and then subsequent marriage to Mr Smith. I had been assuming that Bird was a maiden name too. I shall investigate Ann and I suspect everything may just fall into place :)

It has been family lore in this Baldwin family that they are related to Stanley Baldwin the PM (ironmaster family) but, as you say, there actually seems to be no connection between the two (or at least, if there is, it must be way, way back).

Baldwin's Kings Norton mill became an independent entity in 1926. Interestingly, by 1935, Oscar Stone (Sir Benjamin Stone's son) was managing it, while the Baldwin family still had some fingers in that pie. So there seems to have been some ongoing relationship between the two firms, perhaps resting on long-ago family relationships.

- Michelle
Click to expand...
Hi Michelle. I am i think the last female direct descendant of the James Baldwin family. I have not been back to the UK in a very long time and have lost touch with any of my relatives there from my fathers side of the family. I think i have seen the portraits you are referring to. I visited my great aunt Daphne Baldwin many years ago and they were hanging in her home. Could you pls tell me somehow who was the descendant you were speaking to over there. Im aware i had cousins over there but do not know how to contact them. Many thanks.
 
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