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Pines Express 1950's

pistonvalve

pistonvalve

master brummie
Does anybody remember this Manchester - Bournemouth working that arrived at New St at about 1pm. We train spotters on the end of platform 6 used to see it arrive from Manchester via the Proof-house Junction end usually pulled by a Scot or Pate. What type of engine would take it forward from New St to Bath Green Park?
 
I seem to remember it being worked by either a 'Black five', 'Jubilee' or 'Standard 5' in later years. I don't believe the New Street engine worked through but i'm not sure where the engine
change was made, Gloucester perhaps...
 
As a youngster I spent many an enjoyable hour lineside in Bath opposite the Victoria sheds in the 1950's and it was a rare thing to see the Pines hauled in from Birmingham by a Jubilee. Mainly it would be Black Fives but often a Standard 5 and in the Summer Pines reliefs (extras) would come in behind an ex Somerset & Dorset Fowler 7F working back from a goods to Gloucester by replacing a southbound 'northern' loco there.
 
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Just to muddy the water and perhaps not worth a pinch of salt I have the following memory. In the late 50s I remember seeing The Pines Express leaving Walsall Station. It was being hauled by a Royal Scot class loco.My father, a passenger guard, told me that engineering work had caused it to be routed through Walsall. It was also unusual in that it was remarkably spic and span compared with the local stuff covered in grime of all sorts. As I say it was a long time ago and memory has a way of re-organizing things.
 
Yes I remember the Pines Express at Walsall too on a Saturday afternoon this time hauled by a 'Brit' I think it must have been the return working to Manchester. Just how it arrived at New St in the opposite direction compared with normal Manchester trains has always intrigued me. Perhaps someone will give details of the route it followed off the WCML.

Another puzzle - The 'Cornishman' - What loco (GW or LM) was used beyond Gloucester on the Midland main line into Bristol Temple Meads?
 
The Pines worked into and out of New Street via Proof House, and Camp Hill and onwards to the junction at Kings Norton.
 
pistonvalve said:
Yes I remember the Pines Express at Walsall too on a Saturday afternoon this time hauled by a 'Brit' I think it must have been the return working to Manchester. Just how it arrived at New St in the opposite direction compared with normal Manchester trains has always intrigued me. Perhaps someone will give details of the route it followed off the WCML.

Another puzzle - The 'Cornishman' - What loco (GW or LM) was used beyond Gloucester on the Midland main line into Bristol Temple Meads?
Click to expand...

Here you are.

Move to the Midlands
In the 1952 timetable, the name The Cornishman was applied by the BR(WR) to a train from Wolverhampton Low Level (09:15) and Birmingham Snow Hill (09:50) to Plymouth and Penzance (17:55), travelling via Stratford-upon-Avon, Cheltenham and Bristol. The return working left Penzance at 10:30 reaching Birmingham at 18:36 and Wolverhampton at 19:28. Catering was available throughout the journey and the train conveyed a portion for Torquay and Kingswear.
During the 1960s the northern part of The Cornishman's route underwent extensive changes. Closure of the GWR route from Honeybourne to Cheltenham St James meant using the Ex-Midland Railway route from Birmingham to Gloucester via the Lickey Incline. With the impending closure of the Wolverhampton Low Level station the opportunity was also taken to extend The Cornishman over the former Midland line to Derby and Sheffield, and later on to Bradford Forster Square. By May 1967 departure was from Bradford Exchange at 07:06, then reversing at Leeds with a departure time of 07:36. This gave arrival times at Plymouth of 15:08 and Penzance at 17:55. In the reverse direction The Cornishman left Penzance at 11:00 and Plymouth at 13:30, arriving at Bradford at 22:07.
Further changes in the early 1970s saw The Cornishman start from Leeds on weekdays and Bradford on Saturdays. There were also changes to the route between Leeds and Sheffied, reverting to the former Midland lines rather than using a section of Ex-Great Northern track. The additional stop at Wakefield Westgate which this had enabled was, however, retained.
 
I remember when I used to be going back to Cotteridge Infants school after lunchtime I used to wait on the bridge that leads into Cotteridge park for the "Pines Express" to pass through. From memory it was always around 13:20 when it appeared. It as has been said usually a Black 5 but I thought I had copped most of my "Jubs" on the PE. Towards the end of steam I did see on the odd occasion on summer Saturdays a Patriot and a Royal Scot hauling this express. Happy days.
 
I never realised the Pines Express went in to New St and out again via Proof-house junction (!) Just goes to show what you can learn on this forum. On its journey to Bath it must have gone via the St Andrews curve and Camp Hill. Why did it follow this path when it could have gone direct on the Midland line via Five Ways and avoid a reversal?
 
pistonvalve said:
I never realised the Pines Express went in to New St and out again via Proof-house junction (!) Just goes to show what you can learn on this forum. On its journey to Bath it must have gone via the St Andrews curve and Camp Hill. Why did it follow this path when it could have gone direct on the Midland line via Five Ways and avoid a reversal?
Click to expand...

I dont think that was the route taken, when I used to see it it ran along what is now called the Cross City line from New St.Had it ran through Camp Hill it would have been on what was then used as a freight line. My late brother had pictures taken at Kings Norton station in the 1960's of the PE passing through and on the line that runs through Five Ways, Bournville, Kings Norton and Bromsgrove.
 
Would it be to accomodate an engine change at Birmingham New Street perhaps?
 
Thanks Alf for all the links and History re the Cornishman. Would like the info on the locomotives used between Gloucester and Bristol.

I seem to remember on a Summer Friday evening many specials from the North to the South West ran via the Camp Hill avoiding line thus avoiding the stop at New St. The Pines Express on a Summer Saturday had several reliefs which may have gone a different route. Birmingham passengers had to get to Walsall to board these reliefs - these may have been routed over the Camp Hill line.
 
That is interesting that the Express's may have run that way but as you state if they avoided New St. the pathing could have been via the Camp Hill line. I may have missed seeing these as I very rarely spotted at KN, was usually in the field at Tamworth on Saturdays and then I had converted to GWR at Snow Hill.
With regard to your interest in the motive power for the Cornishman. I used to travel on that once a year to Torquay, and it used to be a Castle.Not sure where the loco was changed as if only travelling to Torquay the last 2 or 3 carriages were detached at Newton Abbot or a train change was required on other services.
 
I would have though that the engine change for Cornishman would have been Temple Meads.
 
Thanks Nevelle, does that mean GW loco's would have worked over the Midland from Gloucester to Temple Meads?
 
No, i don't think so, more of former LMS types working into Bristol which they did, LMS locos were serviced on Barrow Road depot.

St Philips Marsh and Bath Road depots looked after the GW types.

Although the thread title is 'Pines' i presume we are now talking about the 'Cornishman' workings.
 
Found this on the Web.

another name to conjure with "The Devonian" is mentioned too...

Other Named Expresses​
Although the Cheltenham Spa Express was the only named express train that used the entire line, other notable expresses either crossed or used part of it.
The Cornishman started its days as a broad-gauge express running between Paddington and Penzance, and was the last broad-gauge express to do so. In 1904 when the Cornish Riviera came into operation the name of the Cornishman died. But in l952 it was reborn, running this time, not from Paddington, but from Wolverhampton, via Birmingham, Stratford-on-Avon and Cheltenham Malvern Road. It used the joint line to Gloucester then the Midland's Bristol and Gloucester as far as Yate, where it spurred off line as to the Wotton-South Wales main line and ran down into Bristol via Filton. The Cornishman the travelled via Exeter and Newton Abbot to Penzance. When the Honeybourne line was closed the express used Birmingham New Street and approached Cheltenham by way of the Lickey incline, running through the Lansdown station. The last run on the Great Western route was on the l0th September 1962 when the express was in the charge of the Castle class 7001 "Sir James Milne". The next day, on the Midland line, it was diesel hauled. Later its source was altered to Bradford, until l975 when the title was disregarded .
The Devonian ran from Bradford to Paignton and was conferred its title in 1927. It left Bradford at 10:25am and arrived in Paignton at 6:51pm. The express ran via Birmingham New Street and Cheltenham Lansdown to Gloucester Eastgate, from where it travelled to Paignton via Bristol and Exeter. The service was abandoned during the Second World War, but was reinstated in 1946 with a journey time of eight and three quarter hours. A few years later the timing was altered to nine hours thirty seven minutes to Kingswear, a few miles further on, but in the winter months it terminated at Bristol and was untitled. From May 1962 it ran non-stop from Birmingham to Bristol using the Gloucester avoiding line, the over all timing being seven hours fifty minutes, an hour shorter than the 1927 run. During its final years the express was pulled by the Peak class diesels, until 1975 when the title was dropped.
Probably the most famous train to pass over the Cheltenham metals other than the "Flyer" was the Pines Express, the LNWR and LSWR's joint express service between Manchester and Bournemouth Initiated in August 1910 the Pines took. only 1 3/4 hours to cover the Manchester to Birmingham stretch. From there it ran to Bath via Gloucester on the Midland route then to Bournemouth on the Somerset and Dorset. The service was suspended during the First World war and it was not until 1927 that it was reinstated.
Bournemouth was reached 6hrs 27 minutes after departure from Manchester, the slowest section being the long climb through the Mendips on the Somerset and Dorset line, where it was often double headed. The express's hey-day was certainly on summer Saturdays when in the height of the holiday season a relief train was run. Withdrawn for the duration of the Second World War, it ran again on 7th October with a timing of 7 hours southbound. The closure of the Somerset and Dorset line in 1962 meant the Pines was diverted via Oxford and in March 1967, with the electrification of the lines through Birmingham, the Pines Express ceased to run.
 
I rode the Pines regularly from Brum to Bath and back between 1959 and 1964 and on holiday journies from Bath to Brum and back before that. At no time did I ever travel via Camp Hill during that period it was always via Five Ways.
 
Thanks dib44, I always thought the Cornishman ran via Mangotsfield into Bristol on the Midland, likewise the Pines via Mangotsfield to Bath. There appears to be a multitude of 'Joint' lines around Bristol.
 
Further research as revealed an article in Steam Days June 2009 titled 'Bristol Midland/LMS lines' The map shows the two routs into Bristol off the Midland, one via Yate South Junction (GWR) the other via Mangotsfield (MR).
 
As youngsters we used to sit on the bridge at Hamstead and "get the number" of the engine pulling the pines then do a cross reference in our train spotting book to find the
name of the engine.
 
Yes John, I also remember seeing the Pines at Aston Station, just down from Hamstead. I just wonder what route it took to get to Walsall then New St the 'right way round' so it could leave on the Midland on its way to Bath.
 
I think the attached map taken from the excellent Victoria History of Warwickshire (also available as History on Line) shows the choice of routes through Birmingham fairly clearly. It is misleading in that it does not show the through line from the Midland (or indeed the old LNW London main line) avoiding Curzon Street and running direct into New Street.
The fact that the Pines Express came from Wolverhampton via Great Barr suggests to me that it was normally routed via Perry Barr and Aston into Birmingham New Street, crossing over to the Midland platforms beneath Worcester Street. If it had gone through New Street in ther opposite direction via Camp Hill, it would probably been routed from Wolverhampton along the Stour Valley via Dudley Port, as this route was shorter and faster.
I can remember two or more wartime journeys on the Pines Express, as my dad was stationed at Bournemouth in RAF uniform, doing entertainments for convalescing troops there. The first time was on Tuesday 23 December 1942, and the last ones was over the Easter holiday in 1943. On that occasion we actually made the whole outward journey by daylight. I think the change of engine was made at Bath Green Park, a terminal station, where the train reversed anyway.
 
Hi Peter,

I remember the Pines Express pulling out from New Street
Platform 7 in the 1950's, but I recall on several occasions
seeing it pulled by Eastern Region B1's. I wonder if anyone
else can remember this.

Kind regards

Dave
 
Hi Peter and Dave, Interesting - I have seen The Pines at Walsall and Aston, then do I assume It came off the WCML at Stafford and routed through Wolverhampton (high level), Walsall, Bescote, Hamstead, Gt Barr, Perry Barr, Aston. It also could have come off at Rugeley and entered Walsall via Cannock and Bloxwich, although Peter has seen it at Wolverhampton (?) which tends to rule this out.
 
Dave89 said:
Hi Peter,

I remember the Pines Express pulling out from New Street
Platform 7 in the 1950's, but I recall on several occasions
seeing it pulled by Eastern Region B1's. I wonder if anyone
else can remember this.

Kind regards

Dave
Click to expand...

I must have been spotting on the wrong days I never saw the Pines with a B1on! It would have caused great excitement to see one in Bath as it always did when an LM namer came in or a Southern type other than a West Country or Battle of Britain arrived from the Bournemouth end. Bath had two loco sheds together on different levels, the lower level having belonged to the Somerset and Dorset Joint Railway and the upper to the LMS. This made it an interesting place to be able to keep an eye on although there was another location where if we got fed up there we could be by a bridge carrying the S&D line over the WR London - Bristol mainline. As a matter of interest in 1960 due to a landslip the Pines was diverted via Bristol , Bath Spa, Westbury, Salisbury and Southampton to reach Bournemouth. After Beeching axed the S&D line the Pines was diverted via Oxford to reach Birmingham and then didn't last for long as a named express.
At the risk of being slightly off the 1950's, the photo here is of the 1960' diverted Pines in Bath Spa station northbound behind West Country class 34105 'Swanage' caught on camera by famous S&D photographer the late Ivo Peters. As this loco would have been changed for a Midland loco in Bath presumeably it was changed at Bristol Barrow Road shed instead.
 
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