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Perry Barr Mills

L

loisand

master brummie
Two great minds think a like, I was just researching the Handsworth and Perry Barr mills to put in my research, because they are so close to Birmingham. I know of possibly 4 mills those areas, Mr Harveys Mill, Upper and Lower paper mill (2 seperate ones), Perry Barr Mill and a windmill. That is all I've come up with so far!!! I haven't really looked close at Handsworth but will do over the next few days. Perhaps Di or Chris will do a census for you, sometimes you can find out from that what type of mill it is. :)
 
Edit. Unfortunately the photos mentioned below are no longer available.

The first photo I took at the bottom of the hill showing the sturdy walls still in situ, a channel flows away from the mill site and disappears at this point.

View attachment 9017

The next photo shows the channel

View attachment 9018

Next are a series of photos of what I think is the wheel pit, and I think it was an undershot wheel. The depth from the bottom of the pit to the high walls is about 20 feet

View attachment 9019

View attachment 9020

View attachment 9022
 
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This is the channel above the mill wheel, the fall to the right is the head of the pit. The water doesn't flow at this point, so the race is sited under here and must be fed from the resevoir at the head of the site.?

View attachment 9023
 
Hi Di.Poppit

I have not been and looked at that for years, passed it a lot, even went past today, twice, and was thinking "I wished i had an hour to spare". Must say i am chuffed that i remembered it so well but it does look a lot neglected to how i last saw it. Did you look at the last map Cromwell kindly posted for me on the census thread showing how Hol Brooke did indeed run through Paper Mill End and down through this site and eventualy into the river Tame.
By the way, i went along Church Rd today and for the first time noticed on the right hand side of the pub a few cottage like houses tucked away, i will try and find some time to go and have a nose around and see what i can find out.


Bren
 
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If the elevation difference between the upper water level and the lower stream level is 20 feet I think it must have been an overshot wheel. It seems to me that 20 feet is enough to have this with a wheel maybe 17 feet diameter. The water would have been fed to the top of the wheel via a chute from the upper level. Undershot wheels are far less efficient. The location of the wheel bearings would be somewhere about half way down. The upper walls seem to be fairly recent construction although they seem from your pictures to be built upon older brickwork. This stream is a leat completely man made and is divded I think back at the old pre canal pond further up on the old map with the elevation maintained along the rise to gain the head difference of 20 feet above the place where it again meets the old original stream to the west. Could there have been three operating mill wheels close together here using this 20 feet head. There seems to be three black squares on the old map and refference to this in text. Does not seem to be a lot of water.
Great photos thankyou.
 
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Looking at it from a very simplistic view Rupert, the chute at the bottom of the pit seems to point to the water hitting the wheel at that point ! It gushes out at a fairly good rate, you can hear it before you get sight of it.The brickwork at the top and at the head has been renewed, and I wanted of course to see signs of the where the wheel was fixed.

I didn't notice the cottages Bren, I was trying to dodge the builders and didn't really look around there. Must have missed you by inches :)
 
It's guess work of course but I don't think that the pipe outlet that you see is the chute, it probably appeared long after the mill was gone. With a head difference of 20 feet, gained at major effort of construction, it would be a waste to put in an undershot wheel. I think that a 20ft head is quite uncommon for Midland mills. A chute feed would have been made of wood with a control box at the wheel end and a means to bypass the wheel to dissable it. Was the stream further towards the reservoir wide and bricked as shown in your pictures. It seems to me that the upstream construction at that time was similar to that at Aston Furnace where there was no pond but the leat was widened out for a distance. Milling was abandoned a long time ago here and it is not clear how much of the construction there, if any, dates back to those times. One thing is clear though. It seems a 20 foot head was contrived there and it must have been for a watermill. There is a map here that shows the lane up to the mill from Church entirely to the right of the tailrace stream with no cross over bridge. Please note that what I have written is only a personal view based upon the evidence presented and is very much open to correction. Once again nice work.
 
Been having a good look at the 1881 Census


Name:George Rose
Age:47 Estimated Birth Year:abt 1834
Relation:Head
Spouse's Name:Charlotte
Gender:Male
Where born:perry Barr, Staffordshire, England
Civil Parish:Handsworth
County/Island:Staffordshire
Country:England
Street address:paper Mill End Cottage
Condition as to marriage:Married

Occupation:Farm Lab
Registration district:West Bromwich
Sub-registration district:Handsworth
ED, institution, or vessel:25

Household Members:NameAge
Agnes Rose5
Alfred Rose15
Amy Rose1
Arthur Rose9
Charles Rose11
Charlotte Rose37
Clara Rose7
Edward Rose13
George Rose47
George Rose3

On the same page --

Name:George Bayliss
Age:24
Estimated Birth Year:abt 1857
Relation:Head
Spouse's Name:Maria
Gender:Male
Where born:Erdington, Warwickshire, England
Civil Parish:Handsworth
County/Island:Staffordshire
Country:England
Street address:Wire Mill Cottage
Condition as to marriage:Married

Occupation:Farm Labourer
Registration district:West Bromwich
Sub-registration district:Handsworth
ED, institution, or vessel:25

Household Members:NameAge
George Bayliss24
Maria Bayliss24

I went through the whole 27 pages for this area and was able to follow it very easy as i know the area and places named, i reckon this wire mill must be the one where Di took the photo's. If you are able, have a look at the Census and tell me what you think When i get time later i will look for it on the 1871 Census.


bren
 
Bren that's sound like a bit of research all on its own. I think we ought to bring Loisand into this, she is doing the research on the Mills. I know she is busy putting it all together, so I will pm her and tell her to take a look at what we have all found. Before you go throught the census Bren do take a look at the 40 odd pages on the Mills of Birmingham post. I know I put some census results on there, and of course there is the census look up section where many of us have posted for Loisand's research.:)
 
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Hi every one, I have been keeping up to date on your good work, done by all. I haven't really covered this mill because it was in Staffordshire and not Warwickshire. I have got more info on Holford Mill then the mill you are looking at. I do have this piece, that was taken from Featherstone Dilke Archives: "Creation date : 18 November 1572, Counterpart of release from John Warde of Byrmyngham, yeoman to Thomas Wryley of Hamstede, esq., son of William Wyrley, esq., deceased, of his right and title to a leasehold messuage called Newlande, the moiety of Pyrry Milne Perry Mill Lands and appurtenances in Pyrry Barre."
In 1851 John Wilcox was miller
:) :) :)
 
The other millers that I have for Perry Barr Mill are:
1829....William Wragg
1841....William Allen
1860....Cooper & Wallis
1867...William Cart
1914...J. Drew & Sons
Hope this is of some help to you all :)
 
Glad you are with us Loisand:)

I looked at all of the pages Bren, and I'll be jiggered if the first page shows William Loke ag Lab living at Perry Mill!!. No where in the village is there a miller, but I would think William Loke must have milled. perhaps a look at the 1871 will tell us.

Not much help there, on the first page it says John Richards, Mill Farm, Farmer of 100 odd acres. But I think this proves that we know where Perry Mill was, near to the Church as the 1881 showed St Johns church and both Paper and Wire Mills are north of the Reservoir.
 
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More info on Perry Mill:
1576..Half of Perry Mill granted by John Ward of Birmingham to Thomas Wryley
1591...It was a corn mill
1602..Thomas Smith miller
1632..John Curtler of Walsall leased half the mill from Humphry Wryley and entered into agreement to carry grain between Perry Mill and 3 others
1650...Mill fell into diuse when William Spencer of Handsworth leased the site of half a mill for 25 years, and he also agreed to not building either a corn or paper mill
1794...Mill still standing
1818..Charles Gallimore was miller
1834-1843...Saul Elwell miller
1851...John Wilcox miller
1873..mill not in use
1890..mill and all buildings were demolished

I assume then that this is probably the Perry Mill that you are looking at, the other info that I put on about the millers was for Perry Barr Mill.

:) :) :)
 
This will teach me to file my findings as I do them instead of putting to one side:
From the Gough family archives there is reference to Upper and Lower paper mill (one of which is a corn mill), a blade mill and a windmill.
I have reference to the windmill in the years 1774 to 1786.
Perry Mill..a partly decayed blade mill was up fpr sale in 1669 ( I still have to go to the library to see these documents, but that won't be just yet, if any one wishes to do so the reference is MS3145/64/1 Gough Archives Part 1).
1785..there is reference to a Mr Harveys mill, this I am assuming is Perry Mill (reference MS3145/64/8, same archives)
1805 -08..there were new floodgates erected at Perry Mill, a Joseph Stubbs provided timber (reference MS3145/129c, this is only a copy of the receipt, same archives)
1691..."Arbitration award by Edward Byrche...convens the felling of a oak tree on the dam of the upper paper mill and pool, Perry Barr and the repairing of the dam"

:) :) :)
 
I was more than half asleep in the early hours of this morning when i found a list of millers for the area in 1850 but being asleep i forgot to note where i got it from DOH.

It only gave a general location but looking now i notice J. Wilcox is on there as in your list, here are the others --

W. Allen - Birchfield

W. Allin jnr ? - Old Mill, Perry Barr

J. Birch - Perry Barr

W.D. Hollister - Perry Barr

J. Wilcox - Perry Barr

I will have to look to see if i can find it again in my Browser History


Bren
 
The Tame Valley canal and presumably the reservoir were built between 1840-1850 and presumably in use thereafter. So maybe the brook flow was interupted around this time and thereafter the canal would have required water thus depleting the flow to the mill intermittantly. This and the advent of steam power and possibly improved methods may have made the mill obsolete. The record of milling here only goes up to 1851 and there is no indication of when exactly it stopped. Shortage of water may have been one of the reasons. Perhaps the cause of other periods of idleness may have been similar to todays phenomena of buy-out and shut-down. To enhance volume through ones own mill and reduce competition.
 
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If you look at the 1890 Ordnance Survey Map for Perry and follow the canal down to Aldridge Road you can see the pump house, wharf and boat basin. It looks like the pipes for returning water to the reservoir were above ground for part of the way. Looking at GE today you can see the remains of the entrance to the wharf just and it looks like there is still a bridge for the towpath over it. On the other side, where the boat basin was, The buildings run in the same direction that the cutting ran. It is mostly filled in and concreted over now and the old pump house is gone. Much smaller buildings can enclose modern electrical turbine pumps. If it still works that way.
 
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Frothblower posted an 1880 map which shows the canal here but no resevoir. So maybe the reservoir was built between 1880 and 1890. and was not integral with canal operation. It appears on the 1890 Ordnance Survey map.I wonder how much the maps, other than the survey map, can be relied on.
 
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Thanks Cromwell, this map actually shows a lot of info about Holford Mill. It seems that what I thought was a level control sluice may well have been the tailrace from a wheel. This is the short one to the right. A building seems to be over it which might indicate it was more than a sluice from the pond. The sluice seems to be to the right of this.The longer tailrace is also there. So maybe there were two wheels here. The pond is shown in detail with an island in the middle. This probably should be put in the Holford Mill file. It looks like this is the latest development of a water driven mill at Holford so far.
Map unfortunately missing
 
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fff.jpeg 1899.
Perry Mill Farm, close to the Tiver Tame and quite near to Perry Hall.
 
Edit. The image below was discussed and it was thought the image was incorrectly labelled by the Library of Birmingham. All posts relating to this image are now on the Colebrook Priory Mill thread here https://birminghamhistory.co.uk/forum/index.php?threads/colebrook-priory-mill.3949/
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This Library of Birmingham image shows a lake in Perry Barr and a windmill. Looks about 1930s/40s to me. Although there must have been several windmills in the area, this is the first photograph I've seen recording one. Any ideas where exactly this would have been taken ? Would it have been Perry Park ? Viv.
 

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oldMohawk said:
I roamed the Perry Barr area as a child and never saw a disused windmill which I'm sure our gang would have visited. It certainly looks like the Priory Road windmill to me. There are other errors (understandable I suppose) on the Birmingham Library Images site and one example error can be seen in the link below.
The library have an image labelled as Perry Hall Park when it is actually Perry Barr park. The distant view of St John's Church would not have been visible from Perry Hall park. The lady is walking on the north east side of the Perry Barr park pool.
https://www.search.birminghamimages.org.uk/Details.aspx?&ResourceID=3383&PageIndex=2&KeyWord=perry barr park&SortOrder=2
Click to expand...
Never saw a Windmill either and I lived and played there for 25 years. The photo of the Lady walking the dog could have been Perry Hall before any housing was built in Perry Avenue/Walsall road, this would have left a clear view of the Church. The Lake in Perry Barr park was a large lake and not as narrow as the photo shows.
 
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