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Origins of the Brummie accent

It is a bit daft and the man keeps calling his partner coopcycke (cupcake). It does not do much fot the advertiser (in my opinion) either.
A footballing fan friend of mine said an old TV Insurance advert where the Brummie boyfriend says "In the gaardin," and "wey wont ta be tagether," sparked a fight between B'ham and Cov fans, the B'ham fans were bombarded with these phrases. I suppose it is better than having clipped BBC accents as in days gone by?
 
hi

Yes we are off the Rails seems to have got mixed up with Black Country dialect somewhere.
Clearly need a bit of coaching from Carl

Mike Jenks
 
Sorry for off threading. When you are brought up by a Stourbridge 'mom', who worked in Brum, who sometimes brought home her secretary's telephone voice - to Cov, where she became 'mum' with my Cov dad, who referred to her as 'yer mam', and your very close relatives are a mix of Cov, Brum, Stourbridge and Dudley, as a child I just accepted them as the same. So I must have spoken a bit of each, it's only when I look back with the help of the BHA, it becomes obvious that the accents were all so very different.
 
Time to follow Mike Jenks lead and get the cutters out to this thread methinks - what say you Wendy?
 
Hi

most of what's being written now can be covered via simple chat lines or Facebook.
I think Bernard is right. We all slip off the Thread but weeks and weeks.

Mike Jenks
 
Back on thread then ....
the word Tek for "take" seems to be fairly wide spread .... I thought it was brummie but I heard it used by a liverpudlian the weekend.
I'm assuming brummie has more than one accent (if thats the right word).
 
My grandparents said mek and tek but they were what I call BlackCountry. They didn't consider themselves BlackCountry saying it didn't start till Dudley. I can't write the way they spoke but they said toop for tup, a short toop not as in Betty BOOP, or HOOP. I find lots of regional accents have similar phrases or words in them. French people when speaking English say tek also. Not here. My dad said take like take em orf. Not off.
 
I am assuming the "brummie" accent merges (sound wise) when it gets close to another boundary rather than have definative lines if you know what I mean. Obv its affected by where you were born/brought up in the main. Listening to a slight brummie accent always sounds homely to me. And the coventry accent is quite simlar too.
 
Some Cov is a bt lie Brummy some isn't (to me. ) The old one dad spoke was definitely not. People of my age is a bit. The young kids definitely not. People from the North of Cov speak different too. I am towards Brum yet they don't sound Brummy to me.
 
Funny - you would expect the Cov people closer to Brum sounding a bit more brummie.

But I guess brummie might even have different accents ... some even quite posh perhaps - but still distinguisable as "from birmingham" to someone outside Birmingham. I never thought of myself as a brummie with the accent - but non-brummies always say you have a brummie twang.
 
The Daily Mail was reviewing a book today on accents and pronunciation. They included this snippet " In 1997, a hundred students were asked to listen to what they believed were tapes of the police interviewing various suspects -- in fact everyone concerned was an actor. The people playing the suspects either spoke Received Pronunciation-- BBC English-- or with Birmingham accents. The students were then asked to say if they thought the suspects were guilty or innocent. It turned out that they were twice as likely to convict someone who spoke with a Brummie accent. The reason was simple: the Brummies, they reckoned, "sounded guilty". The flattened vowels, the aggrieved uplift at the end of each sentence.....Surely anyone who talks like this must have something to hide? But just a year after the experiment, a nightclub owner in Israel took out adverts in Birmingham papers for staff. Why? Because his clients couldn't get enough of the accent. They thought it sounded cool and sexy". End Quote. Can't say that I ever thought that the accent made one sound guilty. Perhaps they weren't very good actors. Dave
 
farmerdave said:
The students were then asked to say if they thought the suspects were guilty or innocent. It turned out that they were twice as likely to convict someone who spoke with a Brummie accent. The reason was simple: the Brummies, they reckoned, "sounded guilty". The flattened vowels, the aggrieved uplift at the end of each sentence.....Surely anyone who talks like this must have something to hide? End Quote. Can't say that I ever thought that the accent made one sound guilty. Dave
Click to expand...

A similar situation exists in Cheshire, except that people here react the same way when they hear a "Scouse" accent !
 
I wonder if the actors were "proper Brummies" or whether they were just pretending to have Brummie accent?!
rosie.
 
Been ’avin’ a good ol’ mooch on this ’ere thread, which ’as been really fascinatin’. I think that Wessex is on t’summut in ’is post when ’e talks about Brummagem being on the cusp, as it were, of the accents of southern and northern England, or as JohnO calls it in his postin’ “the fault line between the Northern and Southern tongues”; though I can’t see any specifically Welsh influence on Brummie meself.

I’d also go along with how the nearer y’get t’Coventry the more like an East Midlands accent things become, and how the English of the East Midlands, like that of the North, does ’ave a greater Norse, or Viking, flavour to it. As Big Gee says in ’is contribution, Nottinghamshire folk can sound a little like Yorkshiremen – well they do t’me anyroad!

Geoff Miller’s statement about the accent of Brummagem being “heavily influenced by the accents of people who originally moved in during the industrial revolution”, and ’ow these folk were mostly from the surroundin’ counties, meks sense. This would mean, of course, that Brummie was very much made in Brummagem, an’ whilst it’s true that there are strong differences between the speech of Brummies an’ our neighbours in the Black Country, there is much in common an’ all.

In ’is post, A Sparks, talks about the difference of accents between Brummie/Black Country, on the one ’and, and those of Nottinghamshire/Leicestershire to the east an’ Worcestershire/Gloucestershire to the south, which I think highlights the divide in the Country between the dialects of southern/western England an’ those of the north/east, with Brummagem an’ the Black Country straddlin’ this line.

I’d also agree with what Grumlow said in ’is postin’ about changes in accent in the suburbs, an’ ’ow some Brummie accents are stronger than others. To my mind, as y’go further away from the old ends of Ladywood an’ Aston, the less broad the accent an’ the softer the speech; unless y’goin’ towards the Black Country that is, where it’s much stronger still!

Mike Jenks’ comment about ’ow the Brummie accent ’as been transported to places like Redditch is also pertinent, an’ me personal view is that what developed as an urban accent in Brummagem and the Black Country ’as, in more recent times, spread out int’the surrounding countryside, influencin’ the way youngsters speak in those areas, so that Brummie-like tones and Brummagemisms can now be ’eard from Stratford right across to Tamworth.

Lastly, on the subject of Shakespeare ’avin’ spoken like a Brummie, I’m more than sceptical about this, as I’d ’ave thought in the Bard’s day the speech of Stratford would ’ave been much more rural an’ ‘rustic’ – like the recordings of Mr Calcutt from Aston Cantlow or Harry Cook of Shipston-on-Stour, that were made as part of the Survey of English Dialects.

Anyroad up, it’s been interesting goin’ over this old thread an’ I look forward to moochin’ through some of the others in this section, ’specially the ones about old Brummagem words.
 
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Bobowler, I am not disputing your comment that you have not found much Welsh in the Brummie accent but I have spotted some in the Black Country accent. I am thinking particularly of the pronunciation of "woman" as "ooman". Living west of Offa's Dyke, no doubt you have been for a ride on a "bws".

As for Shakespeare's English, you are obviously very knowledgeable on the matter of language, so I suggest you look at Sonnet 1 where he rhymes memory with die and Sonnet 94 where he rhymes dignity with die. A sonnet has a strict rhyming scheme and if it does not comply then it is not a sonnet.
 
’Ow do David, ar they do ’ave a ‘bws’ over ’ere, which does sound a little like someone from the Black Country, or a broad Brummie, sayin’ ‘buz’ for bus. But I en’t sure y’could claim a direct link, an’ the similarity might just as likely be down to coincidence than actual Welsh influence on the accents of the Black Country an’ Brummagem.

Not sure what y’mean about ‘ooman’ for ‘woman’ – are y’sayin’ that’s ’ow the Welsh pronounce it an’ all? This en’t summut that’s ever struck me, but, again, if there are similarities of pronunciation couldn’t this too be coincidental rather than Welsh linguistic influence on Black Country speech?

Anyroad, ar I did see yer comments on Shakespeare’s sonnets, an’ y’mek a good point about the rhyming of ‘memory and die’ and ‘dignity and die’, though, as I en’t so knowledgeable as y’think, I goin’ to ’ave t’get back t’ya on this!

Mind talkin’ of Shakespeare, a fair few years ago now I watched a programme by Melvyn Bragg, where ’e talked about the way Shakespeare would have spoken. I’ve now managed t’find the clip in question, which was part of ‘The Adventure of English’ series back in 2003. If y’go to 41:08, ’e talks about some local regional words that Shakespeare used, then there’s a bit with a fella called Peter Silver, who was a born an’ bred Stratford man, taking to some ol’ gal.

Bragg then says how Shakespeare’s accent is thought to ’ave been a little like the locals of Stratford t’day, but “with a strong ‘r’, in words like turrn and herrd”, goin’ on t’say ’ow “cider becomes zider, and farmer become varmer” and ’ow “right and time become roight and toime”. Then ’e concludes “Although nowadays the Stratford accent is more influence by nearby Birmingham, Shakespeare’s Midland accent was described as having been a mixture between West County and Irish.”

Now y’might not agree with this, but this does kind of fit with what I was sayin’ about the Brummie accent spreadin’ out as far south as Stratford, only that in days gone by the speech of the town would ’ave been more rural. It also seems t’go with what I was thinkin’ about Brummagem an’ the Black Country being on the divide between the more rustic dialects t’the west an’ south, an’ the more flatter Norse influenced ones of the east an’ north.

Listenin’ t’this Peter Silver talk, an’ when ’e reads out a passage from Henry V, ’e sounds more Brummie t’me than Mr Calcutt or Harry Cook, who were recorded by the Survey of English Dialects. Which does seem t’back up what Bragg says about the modern accent of Stratford being influenced by Brummagem, and ’ow older Warwickshire speech would ’ave been more rustic – all interestin’ stuff!!
 
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Hi Just to clarify. The Welsh treat "w" as a vowel pronounced "oo". I was commenting on the Black Country dialect also treating "w" as a vowel.
 
’Ow do David, been lookin’ int’things after yer last post, an’ I think I may ’ave found summut of relevance. I’ve got a book ’ere called Word Maps: A Dialect Atlas of England, which ’as a map showin’ those parts of England where the word ‘woman’ is said without the ‘w’:

image.jpeg​

The map, like the others in the book, is based on data from the Survey of English Dialects, which was undertaken between 1950 and 1961. Mind, it mus’ be said that this was all about recordin’ the speech of rural England an’ not that of urban districts, so there’s no evidence specifically from the Black Country or Brummagem ’ere. Another thing, even though the Survey was done before the county boundary changes of 1974, the maps in the book all show the post 1974 boundaries!

Anyroad, I wonder if this loss of the ‘w’ represents the Black Country ‘ooman’ that y’mentioned? I know that on the map the area without the ‘w’ dun’t cover the Black Country, but it does comprise those areas of Shropshire and Worcestershire to both the west and south of it! As I’ve said, given the Survey den’t look at urban dialects, it’s quite possible that this feature of dropping the ‘w’ did, and does, extend well into the Black Country.

In another volume I ’ave, entitled An Atlas of English Dialects, also based on the Survey of English Dialects, under the entry for ‘wool’ it talks about this loss of the ‘w’ as follows:

“The English sounds w and y are technically classed not as vowels or consonants but as semivowels, sounds which occur at the beginning or end of syllables and in which an initial sound (oo and i respectively) immediately gives way to another vowel sound of as much or greater prominence. Although we usually think of these sounds as being consonants, their vowel-like quality means that they frequently disappear in non-standard speech when they occur alongside a vowel. This is especially the case when they occur at the beginning of a word and precede their vowel equivalent (oo, i).”

A little further on it then says the “absence of w in such words as wool and woman would probably be regarded by many as particularly characteristic of the English speech of South Wales rather more than of South-west England”, which seems t’be what y’were sayin’ about the Welsh pronunciation of ‘woman’.

Could all of this be the answer then? If so, it looks like the Black County ‘ooman’ is merely a traditional feature of the local speech of a wide area of the western Midlands, and, as such, ’as nunk t’do with Welsh linguistic influence. Summut to ponder over maybe? As t’the bit about Shakespeare’s sonnets, I’m still ferretin’ about lookin’ int’this, so bear with me!!
 
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Bobowler
This ent nunk to do with Brummie accents, but your name intrigues me. I seem to remember as a nipper in Brum, we used to call coloured butterflies "Bobowlers".
 
Bobowler, I said you were knowledgeable about language.
I met a complete stranger on the Midland Metro tram yesterday who heard me speaking and immediately said I was not Birmingham and identified me as Worcester. I said I was born and brought up in North Worcestershire and educated in Birmingham so he was not far out.

I actually wrote this yesterday but I must have missed hitting the Post Reply button

Have also spotted this is another milestone in that it is my 1600th post
 
My family always say bobowler but I have seen another poster write it as Bob Howler.
Interesting it has variations.

Of course I don't use the name where I live now (London) as they would have no idea what I was on about!
 
’Ow do Smudger, ar y’right ’ten’t nunk t’do with the Brummie accent – sorry about that! We do seem t’ave gone off on a tangent dun’t we, but in me defence I was only tryin’ to answer David’s query about ‘ooman’ an’ a possible Welsh influence on the accents of the Black Country an’ Brummagem.

Anyroad, as t’Bobowler, ar it can indeed mean a butterfly, or, as David points out, is more often used for a large moth. Sparks is right too about some folk sayin’ ‘Bob Howler’, an’ then there’s David’s version of ‘Bobby-owler’ an’ all! I did actually spot an old thread about Bobhowler Moths, so will add summut to that when I can.

Regardin’ me user name, I chose it ’cus me ol’ man would often tell me on the mornin’, after a night on the booze, ’ow I’d been “as drunk as a bobowler agen”! It’s also one of me favourite words, and, as me visits t’the Forum tend to be nocturnal, well in the evenin’ if not on the night, I thought it appropriate!!
 
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Bobowler said:
Been ’avin’ a good ol’ mooch on this ’ere thread, which ’as been really fascinatin’. I think that Wessex is on t’summut in ’is post when ’e talks about Brummagem being on the cusp, as it were, of the accents of southern and northern England, or as JohnO calls it in his postin’ “the fault line between the Northern and Southern tongues”; though I can’t see any specifically Welsh influence on Brummie meself.

I’d also go along with how the nearer y’get t’Coventry the more like an East Midlands accent things become, and how the English of the East Midlands, like that of the North, does ’ave a greater Norse, or Viking, flavour to it. As Big Gee says in ’is contribution, Nottinghamshire folk can sound a little like Yorkshiremen – well they do t’me anyroad!

Geoff Miller’s statement about the accent of Brummagem being “heavily influenced by the accents of people who originally moved in during the industrial revolution”, and ’ow these folk were mostly from the surroundin’ counties, meks sense. This would mean, of course, that Brummie was very much made in Brummagem, an’ whilst it’s true that there are strong differences between the speech of Brummies an’ our neighbours in the Black Country, there is much in common an’ all.

In ’is post, A Sparks, talks about the difference of accents between Brummie/Black Country, on the one ’and, and those of Nottinghamshire/Leicestershire to the east an’ Worcestershire/Gloucestershire to the south, which I think highlights the divide in the Country between the dialects of southern/western England an’ those of the north/east, with Brummagem an’ the Black Country straddlin’ this line.

I’d also agree with what Grumlow said in ’is postin’ about changes in accent in the suburbs, an’ ’ow some Brummie accents are stronger than others. To my mind, as y’go further away from the old ends of Ladywood an’ Aston, the less broad the accent an’ the softer the speech; unless y’goin’ towards the Black Country that is, where it’s much stronger still!

Mike Jenks’ comment about ’ow the Brummie accent ’as been transported to places like Redditch is also pertinent, an’ me personal view is that what developed as an urban accent in Brummagem and the Black Country ’as, in more recent times, spread out int’the surrounding countryside, influencin’ the way youngsters speak in those areas, so that Brummie-like tones and Brummagemisms can now be ’eard from Stratford right across to Tamworth.

Lastly, on the subject of Shakespeare ’avin’ spoken like a Brummie, I’m more than sceptical about this, as I’d ’ave thought in the Bard’s day the speech of Stratford would ’ave been much more rural an’ ‘rustic’ – like the recordings of Mr Calcutt from Aston Cantlow or Harry Cook of Shipston-on-Stour, that were made as part of the Survey of English Dialects.

Anyroad up, it’s been interesting goin’ over this old thread an’ I look forward to moochin’ through some of the others in this section, ’specially the ones about old Brummagem words.
Click to expand...
We only have to amble along to Berkswell an theym all Broomies. But go back past he Welcome to Solihull sign and they are not. I asked a chap from Stoke in Coventry if he as Brummie as he had the Brummie twang, but no he was born in Walsgrave Hospital, Coventry.
 
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