Not making any more

[Heartland]

It has been a trend over the last few decades to loose factories and works and transfer manufacturing elsewhere. Skills for manufacturing in both Birmingham and the Black Country has been lost. For some such a transition is viewed as progress, for others the vast gaping hole left with the removal of these factories is impossible to fill. Building shopping centres, public venues or homes may physically occupy the land, but the loss of jobs cannot be replaced. Even if the numbers now employed may come close to the former levels, those on minimum wage is often prevalent.

Moving production elsewhere extends the supply chain for what remains. Profit is often in the hands of the haulier companies.

Perhaps 2020 might signal a change for the prospects of manufacturing in the UK, perhaps it will not, but it is worth reflecting on what has gone:

Round Oak Steelworks
Bilston Steelworks
Parkinson Cowan, Stechford
HP Sauce, Aston
Tubes Rocky Lane
Lucas, Great Hampton Street and Spring Road
Austin Rover, Longbridge

The full list is much longer.



The painted notice on the crossing box in Level Street, was a hope in a futile gesture of saving the steel plant. Round Oak closed and was replaced by the Merry Hill Shopping Centre.

With HP the cause was more tragic, as production of the sauce and allied products was moved abroad. It was a landmark brand that should have retained production in Aston. On a technical point, it can be argued that HP sauce can be only made in two places, Nottingham where it was first made or Aston where the product was improved upon. The reason for this observation is apart from the ingredients, local water was used. Local water has dissolved salts unique to the area.

Moving production abroad does not mean the product can be duplicated. HP Sauce should not be called HP for this reason. In the same way, beer production at other Breweries is also not best. To call a beer Ansells (Aston ales) or Mitchells & Butlers (Cape Hill or Springfield) when brewed in a different location is equally inappropriate as the water is different.

 

[mikejee]

Thoroughly agree with that, and especially with respect to the beers, which would definitely be expected ( and are) different if brewed at a different location. Not sure if dissolved salts would affect the flavour of HP, though the "new" product is different , but think this difference would be due to production differences in the new factories rather than the water. When Cadbury's moved production of cocoa mass to Chirk they were really worried and took a great deal of trouble trying to alter processing in order to get the flavour of Bournville dark chocolate the same when produced with Chirk mass as when it was produced at Bournville. They never succeeded, but , paradoxically, consumer research found that the customers in general, preferred the newer product (something that cannot be said to be true for HP sauce)

 

[mikejee]

Going slightly off topic, I came across what I would consider blatant fraud in labelling, though no doubt dubious lawyers have been consulted and OKed it. Noticed that Southern Comfort, labelled "The spirit of New Orleans, ESt. 1874, Original" has , in small letters on the back "Produced in Europe for HI-spirits, Kingston upon Thames"

 

[mw0njm.]

Thoroughly agree with that, and especially with respect to the beers, which would definitely be expected ( and are) different if brewed at a different location. Not sure if dissolved salts would affect the flavour of HP, though the "new" product is different , but think this difference would be due to production differences in the new factories rather than the water. When Cadbury's moved production of cocoa mass to Chirk they were really worried and took a great deal of trouble trying to alter processing in order to get the flavour of Bournville dark chocolate the same when produced with Chirk mass as when it was produced at Bournville. They never succeeded, but , paradoxically, consumer research found that the customers in general, preferred the newer product (something that cannot be said to be true for HP sauce)

prob used the water out the cut

 

[Heartland]

No, cut water was not used for the production of beer and sauces. Birmingham had, and has, the deep wells, where water was drawn from.

Water from the canal was often taken for industrial use, such as cooling purposes and usually returned to the canal.

Staying with sauces, there was another sauce factory that had an equal reputation to HP and that was Holbrook's, which made at Ashted. Those premises were lost for a road widening scheme. The Corporation destroyed that business instead of supporting it!

 

[Brookfields Lad]

No, cut water was not used for the production of beer and sauces. Birmingham had, and has, the deep wells, where water was drawn from.

Water from the canal was often taken for industrial use, such as cooling purposes and usually returned to the canal.

Staying with sauces, there was another sauce factory that had an equal reputation to HP and that was Holbrook's, which made at Ashted. Those premises were lost for a road widening scheme. The Corporation destroyed that business instead of supporting it!

What evidence do you have that the Corporation destroyed the business?

 

[sospiri]

Well their factory was compulsorily purchased by the Corporation, but it appears that it had already suffered significant bomb damage; have a read of this:- http://letslookagain.com/tag/history-of-holbrooks-worcestershire/

Maurice

 

[Brookfields Lad]

Well their factory was compulsorily purchased by the Corporation, but it appears that it had already suffered significant bomb damage; have a read of this:- http://letslookagain.com/tag/history-of-holbrooks-worcestershire/

Maurice

What an interesting site. It seems that Holbrooks had adopted the american model of selling i.e steck'em high and sell 'em cheap, this system works until you have a drop in sales and you no longer have working capital.

Great site, thanks for introducing me to it.

 

[mikejee]

There is a very interesting book/booklet called "Trouble brewing" by Harry F.T.Wren round 1950 on the history of Holbrooks

 

[mw0njm.]

There is a very interesting book/booklet called "Trouble brewing" by Harry F.T.Wren round 1950 on the history of Holbrooks

my sisters hubby used to brew.old ale. and keep the stash in the airing cupboard. one weekend the barrel bust. recking the carpet. so my sis rang the insurance co. they said cant you use some carpet cleaner to clean where you spilt the drop of beer...... "Drop" she said there is 5 gallons under the carpet.

 

[Robert Ensor (bob)]

As someone who grew up in and around the Austin Car Co and walked past it every day to school I can not believe it's gone.
Any one who knows the area this company had a huge foot print.
They had auto trails in the car park on weekends it was so big.
Now to see the home of the Mini ( the real one ) one of the most important cars ever built demolished, and now is housing and such hard to fathom for me.
When I went to school the two big employers Austin's and Cadbury's both gone, not only those two but all the suppliers and where did all those folks go that had jobs linked to these places.
A school friend of my pop started out at Tyburn Road garage repairing body work on buses but got a job at Austin's hanging doors on Mini's, that's all he ever did people put the whole lives into some of these jobs just to see them go elsewhere.

 

[mikejee]

Bob
Although Cadburys has been taken over by the rather slimy Mondelez, the factory is still very much still there producing chocolate, though not all the chocolate is genuine dairy milk and what there is sometimes contaminated by the revolting Oreo additions

 

[Pedrocut]

The only time I got a look at the production line at Longbridge was about the time of Red Robo. What a difference to the BMW/mini factory in China nowadays. Below is a 30 min video...

 

[Williamstreeter]

It has been a trend over the last few decades to loose factories and works and transfer manufacturing elsewhere. Skills for manufacturing in both Birmingham and the Black Country has been lost. For some such a transition is viewed as progress, for others the vast gaping hole left with the removal of these factories is impossible to fill. Building shopping centres, public venues or homes may physically occupy the land, but the loss of jobs cannot be replaced. Even if the numbers now employed may come close to the former levels, those on minimum wage is often prevalent.

Moving production elsewhere extends the supply chain for what remains. Profit is often in the hands of the haulier companies.

Perhaps 2020 might signal a change for the prospects of manufacturing in the UK, perhaps it will not, but it is worth reflecting on what has gone:

Round Oak Steelworks
Bilston Steelworks
Parkinson Cowan, Stechford
HP Sauce, Aston
Tubes Rocky Lane
Lucas, Great Hampton Street and Spring Road
Austin Rover, Longbridge

The full list is much longer.

View attachment 140330

The painted notice on the crossing box in Level Street, was a hope in a futile gesture of saving the steel plant. Round Oak closed and was replaced by the Merry Hill Shopping Centre.

With HP the cause was more tragic, as production of the sauce and allied products was moved abroad. It was a landmark brand that should have retained production in Aston. On a technical point, it can be argued that HP sauce can be only made in two places, Nottingham where it was first made or Aston where the product was improved upon. The reason for this observation is apart from the ingredients, local water was used. Local water has dissolved salts unique to the area.

Moving production abroad does not mean the product can be duplicated. HP Sauce should not be called HP for this reason. In the same way, beer production at other Breweries is also not best. To call a beer Ansells (Aston ales) or Mitchells & Butlers (Cape Hill or Springfield) when brewed in a different location is equally inappropriate as the water is different.

Heartland I can't fault you at all in this post , with regards to beer , sauce etc , it's a pity there hadn't been some regulation drawn up as to where it can be made and where it can't . Something like Champagne for instance , I think champagne is covered by Apellation Controlee . Pity we hadn't got the same

 

[Williamstreeter]

No, cut water was not used for the production of beer and sauces. Birmingham had, and has, the deep wells, where water was drawn from.

Water from the canal was often taken for industrial use, such as cooling purposes and usually returned to the canal.

Staying with sauces, there was another sauce factory that had an equal reputation to HP and that was Holbrook's, which made at Ashted. Those premises were lost for a road widening scheme. The Corporation destroyed that business instead of supporting it!

I can't remember whether it was Ansells or Aston Manor(former Ansells workers) that drew water from wells they were directly above self sufficient

 

[Dave89]

Hi William,

I'm not sure about Ansells, but M & B certainly did, - in fact their telegraphic address
was 'Artesian'.

R. White's in Western Road also had one when I started there in 1966, but I think around
1970 they stopped using it as the water quality had deteriorated.

I guess that's probably where Spring Hill got its name.


Kind regards
Dave

 

[Brookfields Lad]

Spring Hill.
Where Spring Hill library now stands there used to be a 'spring well', this was supposed to have curative properties.

 

[Big Gee]

The only time I got a look at the production line at Longbridge was about the time of Red Robo. What a difference to the BMW/mini factory in China nowadays. Below is a 30 min video...

I was employed in the automotive supply industry for many years until I retired. Unfortunately, I also knew Longbridge in the days of Red Robbo. What was actually going on at the time is still unclear, but it was the beginning of the end for Longbridge. Matters did improve, but the simple and sad fact was they couldn't make any money. They weren't on their own, either: Ford Dagenham, Peugeot Coventry, Rootes Group, and others.

The worst car factories I ever visited (in the 1970's) were in the USA - if you think UK factories were out-dated at the time, you should have seen some of theirs! I happened to see a programme recently about Dayton, Ohio, which was the 'home' of Caterpillar and GM Van production, now all moved either abroad or elsewhere in the USA. Dayton is something of a ghost town as a result. The other end of the spectrum is I also visited the new Honda, Toyota and Nissan factories in the UK, and they are right up there with the best in the world. Just a pity they're not British. It all comes down to hard-headed, hard-hearted economics.

G

 

[Brookfields Lad]

I was employed in the automotive supply industry for many years until I retired. Unfortunately, I also knew Longbridge in the days of Red Robbo. What was actually going on at the time is still unclear, but it was the beginning of the end for Longbridge. Matters did improve, but the simple and sad fact was they couldn't make any money. They weren't on their own, either: Ford Dagenham, Peugeot Coventry, Rootes Group, and others.

The worst car factories I ever visited (in the 1970's) were in the USA - if you think UK factories were out-dated at the time, you should have seen some of theirs! I happened to see a programme recently about Dayton, Ohio, which was the 'home' of Caterpillar and GM Van production, now all moved either abroad or elsewhere in the USA. Dayton is something of a ghost town as a result. The other end of the spectrum is I also visited the new Honda, Toyota and Nissan factories in the UK, and they are right up there with the best in the world. Just a pity they're not British. It all comes down to hard-headed, hard-hearted economics.

G

As part of my studies many years ago I had to look at 'management styles' in different industries. I read a book by chap called 'Handy', he was a management guru. To cut a long story short, he quoted when post second world war a delegation of top management from Chrysler, Ford, general motors et al, went to Japan as part of a peace building mission. Whilst in Japan the Americans visited many factories including car manufacture and the were shown everything.

At the end of their visit the Americans thanked the Japanese for being so open about their future plans and allowing the visitors access to: research and development, accounts, board meetings minutes etc etc.

"Why did you allow us access to all your dept's" the American asked. "We would never let competitors access to our sensitive material".

The Japanese reply was: "We allowed you an all areas access because we knew that whatever you saw during your visit to our factories, when you returned to America you would continue to work in the same manner that you have always done and reject any new working methods and future plans that you saw here in Japan".

And so the Americans did. Now Toyota is the biggest car manufacturer in America and the world.

So when I read that according to the bloke down the pub that the government gave businesses away or foreign companies stole our businesses, I think of the Americans.

 

[Robert Ensor (bob)]

As part of my studies many years ago I had to look at 'management styles' in different industries. I read a book by chap called 'Handy', he was a management guru. To cut a long story short, he quoted when post second world war a delegation of top management from Chrysler, Ford, general motors et al, went to Japan as part of a peace building mission. Whilst in Japan the Americans visited many factories including car manufacture and the were shown everything.

At the end of their visit the Americans thanked the Japanese for being so open about their future plans and allowing the visitors access to: research and development, accounts, board meetings minutes etc etc.

"Why did you allow us access to all your dept's" the American asked. "We would never let competitors access to our sensitive material".

The Japanese reply was: "We allowed you an all areas access because we knew that whatever you saw during your visit to our factories, when you returned to America you would continue to work in the same manner that you have always done and reject any new working methods and future plans that you saw here in Japan".

And so the Americans did. Now Toyota is the biggest car manufacturer in America and the world.

So when I read that according to the bloke down the pub that the government gave businesses away or foreign companies stole our businesses, I think of the Americans.

So much to add here but a gas shortage in the 70's is a place to start for America.
England made small cars that got decent mileage, a look at man hours per car build, England was twice as many compared to other countries.
So yes we did give a lot away.

 

[Robert Ensor (bob)]

Well as we lament the loss of British Motor Car Companys, let's rejoice of at least one.
The Invcar yes that light blue three wheeled contraption offered by the Government to people with disability's and no friends.

 

[mw0njm.]

Well as we lament the loss of British Motor Car Companys, let's rejoice of at least one.
The Invcar yes that light blue three wheeled contraption offered by the Government to people with disability's and no friends.

bob. there was a tat yard in brum full of them invacars.i got hold of 2 one had a Villiers engine which i put in a bsa bantam frame.and there was no kick start.so you had to push start it. it would start in reverse. the second a mod 73 what a terrible thing to drive. we got it started and drove it around the car park until we ended upside down a few times. but with a bit of messing it would wheelie. then it set on fire.

.

 

[Williamstreeter]

So much to add here but a gas shortage in the 70's is a place to start for America.
England made small cars that got decent mileage, a look at man hours per car build, England was twice as many compared to other countries.
So yes we did give a lot away.

Bob small and sensible those American gas gusslers were simply ugly and a waste of timeand fuel bouncing around from morning till evening .

 

[Williamstreeter]

I was employed in the automotive supply industry for many years until I retired. Unfortunately, I also knew Longbridge in the days of Red Robbo. What was actually going on at the time is still unclear, but it was the beginning of the end for Longbridge. Matters did improve, but the simple and sad fact was they couldn't make any money. They weren't on their own, either: Ford Dagenham, Peugeot Coventry, Rootes Group, and others.

The worst car factories I ever visited (in the 1970's) were in the USA - if you think UK factories were out-dated at the time, you should have seen some of theirs! I happened to see a programme recently about Dayton, Ohio, which was the 'home' of Caterpillar and GM Van production, now all moved either abroad or elsewhere in the USA. Dayton is something of a ghost town as a result. The other end of the spectrum is I also visited the new Honda, Toyota and Nissan factories in the UK, and they are right up there with the best in the world. Just a pity they're not British. It all comes down to hard-headed, hard-hearted economics.

G

Big Gee I went to Philips Electrical in Holland in 1977 we went to three of there premises , a lamp factory , plus a tube factory , not to mention there HO . On the tour around the tube factory our guide a supervisor in the plant , went on to say that the secret of their success was management, he pointed out that for every 10 British workers over here there would be about as many managers . Whereas over there in the tube plant for ever 120 workers there was one supervisor and the amount of industrial disputes since WW11 you could count on your one hand .

 

[Big Gee]

You're not far wrong there, William. It was rumoured that the largest non-production department at Longbridge in the bad old days was Purchasing - someone at the factory told me that there were over 900 people employed in Purchasing, which may or may not be true...but I won't argue with that estimate. These were people I had to deal with on occasion. I heard stories about this department which I won't repeat here. Some of the senior buyers acted like they were demi-gods, and could quite easily make or break a small supplier to Longbridge. As time went on, many supply-companies such as the one I was with at the time withdrew supply, but this in itself was by no means straightforward.

But not all bad around the Midlands back then. The one car-plant I did actually enjoy visiting and dealing with was Land Rover (I'm talking pre-Tata days here). There seemed to be a different and more open attitude in the offices - but of course ex-Land Rover employees may well disagree with me here. And I did once get a ride around the test-track!

G

 

[Williamstreeter]

You're not far wrong there, William. It was rumoured that the largest non-production department at Longbridge in the bad old days was Purchasing - someone at the factory told me that there were over 900 people employed in Purchasing, which may or may not be true...but I won't argue with that estimate. These were people I had to deal with on occasion. I heard stories about this department which I won't repeat here. Some of the senior buyers acted like they were demi-gods, and could quite easily make or break a small supplier to Longbridge. As time went on, many supply-companies such as the one I was with at the time withdrew supply, but this in itself was by no means straightforward.

But not all bad around the Midlands back then. The one car-plant I did actually enjoy visiting and dealing with was Land Rover (I'm talking pre-Tata days here). There seemed to be a different and more open attitude in the offices - but of course ex-Land Rover employees may well disagree with me here. And I did once get a ride around the test-track!

G

While doing my apprenticeship in the 60's , I seen the land Rovers coming off the track , someone pointed the test track out to me

 

[Big Gee]

Sorry to hog the posts here, but regarding American cars. I was transferred to Ohio by my employer in 1977, and I was supplied with a quite old Chevrolet Chevelle, which the Yanks called 'mid-size' and I called 'enormous'. If I recall, the engine was a 5400cc V8. By my reckoning it did about 12 mpg (US gallon, which is smaller than ours) and about 9 mpg with the aircon on. Lead-free fuel at that time in the USA was $0.49 per US gallon, about $0.59 per UK gallon or at the exchange-rate of the time about £0.23 per UK gallon. (I hope my arithmetic is correct). It was not what you'd call speedy, but it was at least very comfortable for a bloke who is 6' 4" tall. It had very little in the way of refinements - it just went where you wanted to go. A fill-up was about 55 US gallons IIRC. You could drive this thing all day at the legal maximum of 55 mph and not feel at all fatigued. A bit different to the Hillman Minx I drove here.....

G

 

[Williamstreeter]

Sorry to hog the posts here, but regarding American cars. I was transferred to Ohio by my employer in 1977, and I was supplied with a quite old Chevrolet Chevelle, which the Yanks called 'mid-size' and I called 'enormous'. If I recall, the engine was a 5400cc V8. By my reckoning it did about 12 mpg (US gallon, which is smaller than ours) and about 9 mpg with the aircon on. Lead-free fuel at that time in the USA was $0.49 per US gallon, about $0.59 per UK gallon or at the exchange-rate of the time about £0.23 per UK gallon. (I hope my arithmetic is correct). It was not what you'd call speedy, but it was at least very comfortable for a bloke who is 6' 4" tall. It had very little in the way of refinements - it just went where you wanted to go. A fill-up was about 55 US gallons IIRC. You could drive this thing all day at the legal maximum of 55 mph and not feel at all fatigued. A bit different to the Hillman Minx I drove here.....

G

Back in my apprenticeship days , while The Birmingham Post and Mail was being built . A sparks I worked with said he was going to get a yankee car , he turned up one Thursday morning in a sky blue Chevrolet Impala with a bot of white on the fins . We used to get paidon a Thursday but had to go to the office on Holloway Head , I can remember from Paradise St onwards to the office bouncing around all over the shop , me hoping it would soon end , the sparks sitting there driving with a broad grin on his face , I didn't know what to say when I got out whether it should be 10-4 or alternatively book em Danno .

 

[Robert Ensor (bob)]

There was a time when you wanted to drive round the world you had to buy a Land Rover, then maybe a Volkswagen Bug that way parts were available.
But now if you want to drive round the world you need a Camry.

 

[Robert Ensor (bob)]

Sorry to hog the posts here, but regarding American cars. I was transferred to Ohio by my employer in 1977, and I was supplied with a quite old Chevrolet Chevelle, which the Yanks called 'mid-size' and I called 'enormous'. If I recall, the engine was a 5400cc V8. By my reckoning it did about 12 mpg (US gallon, which is smaller than ours) and about 9 mpg with the aircon on. Lead-free fuel at that time in the USA was $0.49 per US gallon, about $0.59 per UK gallon or at the exchange-rate of the time about £0.23 per UK gallon. (I hope my arithmetic is correct). It was not what you'd call speedy, but it was at least very comfortable for a bloke who is 6' 4" tall. It had very little in the way of refinements - it just went where you wanted to go. A fill-up was about 55 US gallons IIRC. You could drive this thing all day at the legal maximum of 55 mph and not feel at all fatigued. A bit different to the Hillman Minx I drove here.....

G

The last car I owned in the UK a Ford Ranchero with a 400 cu in engine (6.5 Litre) a V12 Jag 5.3, thankfully a friend owned a gas station on the by-pass from the Maypole to Redditch but to get through the weekend I had to fill jerry cans.