• Welcome to this forum . We are a worldwide group with a common interest in Birmingham and its history. While here, please follow a few simple rules. We ask that you respect other members, thank those who have helped you and please keep your contributions on-topic with the thread.

    We do hope you enjoy your visit. BHF Admin Team
  • HI folks the server that hosts the site completely died including the Hdd's and backups.
    Luckily i create an offsite backup once a week! this has now been restored so we have lost a few days posts.
    im still fixing things at the moment so bear with me and im still working on all images 90% are fine the others im working on now
    we are now using a backup solution

Nechell Park Road - Eliza Poole nee Allen

AnnieB

AnnieB

master brummie
I am seeking family descendants or any information about Abraham POOLE (1847-1924) and Eliza ALLEN (1853-1895) to help me break down a brick wall. They are my 2 x great grandparents. I have been trying to proceed with Eliza's ascendants but, with so many Eliza Allens purportedly born in Birmingham around this time, it has become very challenging.

What I do know is: Eliza married Abraham (a brassfounder) in Saltley in November 1872 when she was 20 years old and they stated they were living in Saltley at the time. Eliza's father was recorded as John Allen (deceased) - whip maker. Their address on 1881 census was 1 Providence Place, Church Road, Aston and Milton Street, St. George's in 1891. On Eliza's death certificate in 1895 the address was recorded as 22 Nechells Park Road. She was 42. She is buried in Witton Cemetery in a common grave.

I do have a 1871 census with an Eliza Allen living with her widowed mother, Georgina, in Lower Hurst Street, Birmingham but I cannot find a marriage for a John Allen to a Georgina. I do, however, have a birth certificate (one of 5 I have purchased for Eliza!) with a mother Georgina Allen but no father's name! There has also been 'suggested' that there is an Irish connection somewhere. Could Eliza have been illegitimate? Did she invent a father for her marriage certificate to 'save face'? Was Georgina Irish? I took a DNA test with Ancestry a few years back but nothing has come to light as yet. There is a photograph on Ancestry purporting to be Eliza annotated with the correct dob and dod and I have messaged everyone on Ancestry with Eliza in their tree to see who owns this photograph as I think that will be my way to break down this wall. I thought I would try on this fab site as you never know. TIA everyone!
 
It was not uncommon for illegitimate people to fudge their father's name on their marriage certificate, so you could be right.

Who were the witnesses? Any clues?

There is a marriage for a Georgina Allen to a Joseph Crowley 1871. Her age matches the 1871 Georgina Allen.
 
MWS said:
It was not uncommon for illegitimate people to fudge their father's name on their marriage certificate, so you could be right.

Who were the witnesses? Any clues?

There is a marriage for a Georgina Allen to a Joseph Crowley 1871. Her age matches the 1871 Georgina Allen.
Click to expand...
Yes - I've seen that. No clues on the witnesses apart from an Emily Poole who was related to Abraham. I may have to order the marriage certificate to find out if Georgina was a spinster or widow. 'Our Eliza' is costing me a small fortune! Ha ha!
 
After a lot more research and using DNA matches, I have a DNA connection to a descendant of an Allen family that originated in Hartlebury, Worcestershire. Long story short, John Allen, who I'm inclined to think is Eliza's father, was a 'publican' at the age of 40 according to the 1871 census. He was living with wife, Sarah, who was 28. The address recorded is 84 Nechells Park Road! Next question.........anyone know of a pub at 84 Nechells Park Road in 1871, please? I think he may have had a relationship with Eliza's mother who I think was calling herself Georgina Allen in the 1871 census. Any help with the pub would be gratefully received. TIA
 
1868 Kelly's lists 84 Nechells Park Road as a beer retailer, name is Benjamin Cook.
1872 84 is also listed as a beer retailer.
 
The 1873 Whites directory lists a Henry Holmes runnung a beerhouse at 84 Nechells Park Road
 
It seems unusual for Eliza to be registered with her mother listed as Georgina Allen and no father if she was indeed the daughter of John Allen.

You would expect her to be either registered under her mother's name and no father, or as an Allen with father's name and mother's maiden name.

And where does whip maker come from?
 
On the 1851 census there is a John Walton born Ireland 1827 living in Aston with his wife Emma (Wilday) and son Walter John.

On the 1861 John Walton (listed as Walson) is in Bham. His son Walter John is still there but Emma has disappeared, his wife is now listed as Georgina and there is a daughter Eliza, aged 8.

There is no Eliza Walton registered but there are two other Walton/Wilday children registered Jane Frances Sophia (1853) and Ellenor Matilda (1859). There is no sign of these 2 daughters either.

When Walter John Walton marries Emma Bowen in Willenhall in 1869 he lists his father as John Thomas Walton, a whip maker.
 
And finally John Walton appears to be the son of George Walton and Jane Driscoll and on the 1851 census George and his family are living in Aston. With them is a servant, Georgiana b1829 listed as Walton (on findmypast) but possibly mis-transcribed or mis-recorded. Would have to see the actual scan.
 
Last edited:
MWS said:
And finally John Walton appears to be the son of George Walton and Jane Driscoll and on the 1851 census George and his family are living in Aston. With them is a servant, Georgiana b1829 listed as Walton (on findmypast) but possibly mis-transcribed or mis-recorded. Would have to see the actual scan.
Click to expand...
Split over 2 pages - writing not easy to read
1627992101613.png

1627992134847.png
 
  • Appreciate
Reactions: MWS
Agree. They obviously had trouble spelling Georgiana as well.

It has been corrected on Ancestry to "Atkins" with a subscriber saying that their son John married a Georgiana Atkins but I think Allen looks more likely.
 
When comparing Walton to 'Allen' they both seem to have the same n at the end.

Assuming it is the same Georgina that marries Joseph Crowley in 1871 it would be interesting to see how she describes herself and if her father was an Allen.
 
MWS said:
When comparing Walton to 'Allen' they both seem to have the same n at the end.

Assuming it is the same Georgina that marries Joseph Crowley in 1871 it would be interesting to see how she describes herself and if her father was an Allen.
Click to expand...
Thank you to pjmburns and yourself for your support in this! I am trying different hypotheses to determine which Eliza and which John I can claim as my 2 x great grandmother and my 3 x great grandfather as there were several of both at the time. I can only go on her marriage certificate as to who her father is. I've looked at deaths for a John Allen, ordering certificates as I have done with all Eliza Allen birth certificates registered in Birmingham and Aston (to be sure). I know Aston was not classed as Birmingham around the time of Eliza's birth in 1852/3 (again, her birth year worked out from the age on the marriage certificate). There are two marriages for a Georgina Allen - one to Joe Crowley as has been already mentioned and one in 1851 to a Daniel Westbury in Aston Juxta. I may have to bite the bullet and order both certificates to sort this conundrum out. I shall also look again for a marriage prior to/around the time of Eliza's birth between a Georgina and John Allen. My aunt has a DNA match with someone who has a William Allen from Hartlebury, Worcestershire in their tree. I have come across a John Allen who was born in Hartlebury and ended up in Aston whose family were maltsters. This ties in with John ending up a publican maybe? Also, Eliza's granddaughters all ended up in the pub trade in one way or another. Coincidence? Once again, thank you all so much.
 
MWS said:
It seems unusual for Eliza to be registered with her mother listed as Georgina Allen and no father if she was indeed the daughter of John Allen.

You would expect her to be either registered under her mother's name and no father, or as an Allen with father's name and mother's maiden name.

And where does whip maker come from?
Click to expand...
My thoughts too but I cannot find a marriage for a Georgina ? and John Allen. On the 1871 census Georgina claimed she was widowed. Was Eliza the daughter of John Allen but him and Georgina not married - Georgina just using his name to save face? Whip maker is the profession given for John Allen (deceased) on Eliza's marriage certificate.
 
MWS said:
And finally John Walton appears to be the son of George Walton and Jane Driscoll and on the 1851 census George and his family are living in Aston. With them is a servant, Georgiana b1829 listed as Walton (on findmypast) but possibly mis-transcribed or mis-recorded. Would have to see the actual scan.
Click to expand...
I have seen this before in my research. Is this Eliza's mother?
 
My theory would be that Georgina Allen whilst a servant of the Walton family had a child with their eldest son (John) who was already married.

At some stage his wife leaves him and on the 1861 census Georgina and John are living together as man and wife with his son and their daughter Eliza.

By 1871 the relationship has ended and Georgina is again listed as Allen and as a 'widow' living with Eliza.

Georgina marries Joseph Crowley in 1871.

Eliza marries in 1872 and her father is listed as a half truth - John (for John Walton) and Allen (her birth name) with John Walton's occupation (he was at times a whip maker & is listed as such on his son's marriage) and deceased (which he wasn't).

As already said the 1871 marriage between Georgina Allen and Joseph Crowley could be interesting.

It's definitely not the Georgina Allen who marries Daniel Westbury in 1851, they are still together on the 1881 census.
 
MWS said:
My theory would be that Georgina Allen whilst a servant of the Walton family had a child with their eldest son (John) who was already married.

At some stage his wife leaves him and on the 1861 census Georgina and John are living together as man and wife with his son and their daughter Eliza.

By 1871 the relationship has ended and Georgina is again listed as Allen and as a 'widow' living with Eliza.

Georgina marries Joseph Crowley in 1871.

Eliza marries in 1872 and her father is listed as a half truth - John (for John Walton) and Allen (her birth name) with John Walton's occupation (he was at times a whip maker & is listed as such on his son's marriage) and deceased (which he wasn't).

As already said the 1871 marriage between Georgina Allen and Joseph Crowley could be interesting.

It's definitely not the Georgina Allen who marries Daniel Westbury in 1851, they are still together on the 1881 census.
Click to expand...
This sounds feasible and in a similar direction to how I was thinking. However, I haven't yet come across the 1861 census you mentioned showing John and Georgina living together so that is what I will do now. I have just ordered the marriage certificate of Georgina and Joe so we shall see. Thank you again for your support and help. I will get there in the end!
 
AnnieB said:
I am seeking family descendants or any information about Abraham POOLE (1847-1924) and Eliza ALLEN (1853-1895) to help me break down a brick wall. They are my 2 x great grandparents. I have been trying to proceed with Eliza's ascendants but, with so many Eliza Allens purportedly born in Birmingham around this time, it has become very challenging.

What I do know is: Eliza married Abraham (a brassfounder) in Saltley in November 1872 when she was 20 years old and they stated they were living in Saltley at the time. Eliza's father was recorded as John Allen (deceased) - whip maker. Their address on 1881 census was 1 Providence Place, Church Road, Aston and Milton Street, St. George's in 1891. On Eliza's death certificate in 1895 the address was recorded as 22 Nechells Park Road. She was 42. She is buried in Witton Cemetery in a common grave.

I do have a 1871 census with an Eliza Allen living with her widowed mother, Georgina, in Lower Hurst Street, Birmingham but I cannot find a marriage for a John Allen to a Georgina. I do, however, have a birth certificate (one of 5 I have purchased for Eliza!) with a mother Georgina Allen but no father's name! There has also been 'suggested' that there is an Irish connection somewhere. Could Eliza have been illegitimate? Did she invent a father for her marriage certificate to 'save face'? Was Georgina Irish? I took a DNA test with Ancestry a few years back but nothing has come to light as yet. There is a photograph on Ancestry purporting to be Eliza annotated with the correct dob and dod and I have messaged everyone on Ancestry with Eliza in their tree to see who owns this photograph as I think that will be my way to break down this wall. I thought I would try on this fab site as you never know. TIA everyone!
Click to expand...
Dear Annie B,My ancestry is linked to Nechel
 
Rodney Allen said:
Dear Annie B,My ancestry is linked to Nechel
Click to expand...
Hi! Only just seen your response. Through thorough DNA research and linking with several DNA matches, I am nearly there! It appears that Georgina did have a child - Eliza- with John Walton. Now, I am tracking Georgina's mother who appears to be either the child or grandchild of Joseph Allen and Maria Heritage. Have you any connections?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top