• Welcome to this forum . We are a worldwide group with a common interest in Birmingham and its history. While here, please follow a few simple rules. We ask that you respect other members, thank those who have helped you and please keep your contributions on-topic with the thread.

    We do hope you enjoy your visit. BHF Admin Team
  • HI folks the server that hosts the site completely died including the Hdd's and backups.
    Luckily i create an offsite backup once a week! this has now been restored so we have lost a few days posts.
    im still fixing things at the moment so bear with me and im still working on all images 90% are fine the others im working on now
    we are now using a backup solution

Crimes : Birmingham murders

Status
Not open for further replies.
postie

postie

The buck stops here
Staff member
I came across this article whilst surfing the net.

Barbara Forrest (Born 1954) and Mary Ashford (Born 1797) were both the victims of murder 157 years apart yet both instances have remarkable similarities. They were both found murdered on the same day, 27th May, in the same town, both in 1817 and 1974 the 26th of May was Whit Monday, they had both been raped before they were murdered, they were both found within 400 yards of each other, they were both murdered at about the same time of day, there were attempts to hide both bodies, both girls had visited a friend on the evening of Whit Monday, both changed into a new dress that night, and both went to a dance.
The man accused of each murder had the same name - Thornton, and both men were acquitted of murder, both girls have very similar facial features and 10 days before, 17th May 1974, Barbara Forrest said to a friend, "This is going to be my unlucky month. I just know it. Don't ask me why."

These incidents took place in the Erdington/ Pipe Hayes area and both girls had been to the Tyburn House Pub to a dance.

FOOT NOTE

Abraham Thornton was the last man in England to claim a TRIAL BY COMBAT and was acquitted of the charge as there was no suitable Ashford male relative to oppose him. The law of the land was changed as a result.
After the case Thornton emigrated to America.
 
Postie,the last time I heard of Mary Ashford was in the years between 1957/1959.

I worked for a firm of solicitors in Waterloo Street and one of the young women clerks had acquired all the trial papers and I was able to study them.

I can't remember why she had them(probably thought she could find out the truth)because I believe at the time she thought, for some reason, that Thornton was not responsible.

I would imagine that interpreting the evidence in 1797 was a bit different to 1950s.

I recall reading passages from the trial myself and thinking that the case against the 'murderer' was a touch flimsy.

If my memory is correct wasn't her body found near Holly lane quarry.
 
Should have said that The young lady in question (probably considering herself Rumpole) thought that one of the other names mentioned in the trial was responsible. I think more than Thorntons name had been put forward as a suspect.
 
The body was found in a small water filled pit in the Penns Mill area by a labourer, George Jackson , on his way to work.
The evidence against Thornton was mostly circumstantial and he left for America proclaiming his innocence.
There was another suspect named Benjamin Carter, but for some reason, he was eliminated from enqiries.
 
Mary Ashfords Ghost is still said to haunt Penns Lane, & manys the sightings that have been on a dark foggy night, her image seen in the headlights of a passing car as she glided over in the direction of the old Penns Mill.
 
Another one for you Postie,

History Lesson

Have a history teacher explain this----- if they can.

Abraham Lincoln was elected to Congress in 1846.
John F. Kennedy was elected to Congress in 1946.
Abraham Lincoln was elected President in 1860.
John F. Kennedy was elected President in 1960.
Both were particularly concerned with civil rights.
Both wives lost their children while living in the White House.
Both Presidents were shot on a Friday.
Both Presidents were shot in the head.
Now it gets really weird.
Lincoln 's secretary was named Kennedy.
Kennedy's Secretary was named Lincoln.
Both were assassinated by Southerners.
Both were succeeded by Southerners named Johnson.
Andrew Johnson, who succeeded Lincoln, was born in 1808.
Lyndon Johnson, who succeeded Kennedy, was born in 1908.

John Wilkes Booth, who assassinated Lincoln, was born in 1839.
Lee Harvey Oswald, who assassinated Kennedy, was born in 1939.

Both assassins were known by their three names.
Both names are composed of fifteen letters.
Now hang on to your seat.
Lincoln was shot at the theater named 'Ford.'
Kennedy was shot in a car called ' Lincoln' made by 'Ford.'
Lincoln was shot in a theater and his assassin ran and hid in a
warehouse.
Kennedy was shot from a warehouse and his assassin ran and hid in a
theater.

Booth and Oswald were assassinated before their trials.
And here's the kicker...
A week before Lincoln was shot, he was in Monroe, Maryland
A week before Kennedy was shot, he was with Marilyn Monroe.
 
I have just found this Photo (in a book by Marian Baxter)of Mary Ashfords Grave in Holly Trinity Church Yard Sutton Coldfield.
The tomb stone reads:As a warning to female virtue and a humble monument to female chastity, this stone marks the grave of Mary Ashford,who in the 20th year of her age,having incautiously repaired to a sense of amusement without proper protection,was brutally violated and murdered on27 MAY 1817
 
I knew about Mary Ashford's murder since it seems to be the most notorious murder that happened in Erdington over the centuries. I had never heard about the l974 murder and it is indeed very spooky regarding the sameness of information about both of these murders. It's fascinating that no one was every convicted for either of the murders. I didn't know that Mary Ashford's grave was in Holy Trinity Church graveyard until today. It is also ironic that in that area, Holy Trinity vicarage garden, ten years ago a girl was murdered on New Year's Eve. ...Nicola Dixon l7 years old. Her murderer was found years later and is serving life in prison.
 
Nicol Dixon had also been on a night out, at the Good Hope Social Club and was on her way to the Station Pub in Sutton, when She was Attacked
 
I forgot to put the year in for the tragedy of Nicola Dixon...it was l996 New Year's Eve
and she was found New Year's Day 1997.
 
postied said:
There was another suspect named Benjamin Carter, but for some reason, he was eliminated from enqiries.
Click to expand...

Postied,

I'm interested in this case; can I ask what your source is for identifying Benjamin Carter as an alternative suspect?
 
What Frantic says in his post about Abraham Lincoln - and John F Kennedy is absolutley true - stranger than fiction -

Though I tend believe it is a strange coincidence -
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Talking about spooky.

On Christmas Eve 1969 I had a Row with the then wife and she ran off with our car to her Mothers for Christmas. That meant that I had to walk from Coleshill to my Mothers in Erdington for Christmas. On the way I took a short cut through the Cemetery at Castle Bromwich don't know what its called but its on the top of a hill by the Motorway. On entering the Cemetery the first gravestone I saw was ....... Died on 9th September 1936 nothing unusual about that only that it was the day I was Born, Spooky or what:Aah:
 
Spooky

Hi

Similiar experience in a grave yard
My Father in Law died in 1979 and was buried in Pudsey
Cemetery. It was an awful day he actual died on My mother in laws
Birthday. Snow was all over the place and the Funeral bearers were all
over the place. He was a huge man and unfortunately when they started to
lower him the Coffin broke away and bounced to the bottom. I was standing
on the edge holding my Mother in law. Terrible day.
We never visted the Cemetetry for years. Around 1986 my son was only
3 and we were visting Mother in law. I can remember the events as clear
as a bell. We tried to remember where Eric was buried. Trying to retrace the
steps from the Chapel we turned where we thought Erics Grave was. No chance we were lost in graves by now. I looked around for my lad and coudnt see him. Tim I cried where are here dad I walked towards him
and he was standing by a Grave. You guessed it was Erics Grave.
Spooky or what.

Mike
 
To get back on the original thread
It is only fair to Thornton to say that the evidence against him was of an inconclusive and circumstantial nature, and the mystery surrounding Mary Ashford's death remains. Her grave can be seen in the churchyard of Holy Trinity Church, Sutton Coldfield. The flat headstone is now so badly defaced that it has become impossible to read the inscription.

Lovely and chaste as the primrose pale Rifled of Virgin Sweetness by the gale, Mary! The Wretch who thee remorseless slew,
Avenging wrath, which sleeps not, will pursue For though the deed of blood be veiled in night,
Will not the Judge of all the earth do right? Fair blighted Flow'r! The Muse that weeps thy doom
Rears o'er thy murder'd Form, This warning tomb.
Mary Ashford's epitaph was written by the Rev. Luke Booker, LL.D.,
who also wrote a pamphlet in refutation of the case for the defense of Thornton at the first trial.
 
Hi, Cromwell,

The Headstone used to be upright until they decided to use the space for a day-centre and car-park - I didn't know the headstone was still around though; where is it now in relation to the church?

And I'd still like to know how/why Benjamin Carter was considered an alternative suspect - could you give 'postied' a nudge? Thornton was arrested within hours of the discovery of the body and nothing I've ever read even hints that anybody else was ever suspected.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Their used to be a 18th century sandstone based sundial in the middle of the churchyard which was in a pretty bad state the gravestone was just by that...But that was in the 70's.............
 
Ghost reader, if you know about the Mary Ashford Murder surely you must know that Benjamin Carter was with Thornton a few hours before she was murdered.
 
Cromwell,

Yes, I know but that is not the same thing. Postied seemed to me to be stating that Carter had, at some point, been a suspect. Nothing I have read of the case is remotely suggestive of anyone other than Thornton ever having been entertained as a suspect by the investigators at that time. It is precisely because I am interested in the case that I was trying to establish whether there was any referential source for Postied's statement or whether it was just a case of hearsay and supposition.

After all, not only was Thornton arrested within hours of Mary Ashford's body being recovered and identified but he was indicted following the inquest, put on trial for his life at Warwick, then subsequently re-arrested and taken to London on an 'Appeal of death' by the brother of Mary Ashford with a view to putting him on trial for his life a second time. This is not strongly suggestive of anyone else's name having ever been put in the frame. I'm simply trying to evaluate the basis upon which Postied suggested otherwise.

After all too, modern Police investigative practice would point the finger at Thornton as the last person seen in company with the deceased or otherwise at Thomas Broadhurst for being the last person, avowedly, to have seen the victim alive.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
The murder was at theYWCA hostel in Wheeleys Rd the victim was Stephanie Baird and her murderer was found and convicted
 
Hello, I lived near where the horrific murder took place.It was 1959 when the poor woman was stabbed and decapitated,her murderer was a man named Patrick Byrne.He was questioned by police on numerous occasions but eventually gave himself up in 1960.He came from Birmingham ,his mother ran a boarding house near the Y.W.C.A where the murder took place.He caught a no.8 bus and escaped covered in blood but no one came forward with this information for sometime.My Mom was at a jumble sale days before the murder took place and remembered it was the kind of place where anyone could come and go ,she told the police this when my father was questioned like all the men in the area where we lived .Our neighbours son was questioned over many nights it was horrendous and a really frightening time for everyone.I believe he served 14 years in prison but I am not absolutely sure of this.
 
There was a very young policeman who was one of first to view the scene of the Murder, he found it very hard to deal with for a long time afterwards (No tumor counselling back then). He was a very close friend of one of my Godmother's daughters.

Pom
 
Does anyone know anything of a murder around 1960, when a teenage girls body was found in Sacred Heart School, by Witton Road.One of my friends from my very young days from Mansfield Road , Michael Collins (no relation) was, according to a quick statement from my mother , accused of the murder. The topic was then hushed up very quickly and I heard no more about it. I had a quick look in Birmingham Library but found nothing.
Dave
 
Yes Dave I do and given time I will remember her name. I think there were three murders of young girls at almost the same time. I have a feeling it was 1963 or 4 as Pete walked me home one night and family members of the missing girl were asking locals if they had seen her. If her name comes to me will google it. Have sent you a phone no you asked for. [John's] Jean.
 
Hi GG Jean,
Are you possibly confusing this with the Cannock chase murders or was there a double spate of murders?I didn't think I was 17 when it happened, but time does play tricks for sure.
Dave
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top