Missing Family members - Wheeler / Baker

[JaneMTaylor]

jane have you got florences marriage cert to look at to see what what she has put down as her fathers occupation

lyn

hi Lyn

not got Florence's marriage certificate just the index reference. On Ellen's in 1929 I think it reads as church metal worker

 

[JaneMTaylor]

janice i think if this was my family search i would now have to think about taking a gamble and obtaining the death cert for the rowton house death as it may provide vital clues such as who if anyone was present at death as it could have been a family member..think i would also get the death cert for the lily wheeler b1878 died in 1952 aged 74 as the age is spot on for that as well...mind you im like a dog with a bone with my research...i wont give up until i have it sorted lol

lyn

i have got George's death certificate on order. Did ask for Lily, but this was when I was told that this was a child. So realised that dates were wrong. May try the new date for Lily's death and marriage for florence

 

[JaneMTaylor]

janice i think if this was my family search i would now have to think about taking a gamble and obtaining the death cert for the rowton house death as it may provide vital clues such as who if anyone was present at death as it could have been a family member..think i would also get the death cert for the lily wheeler b1878 died in 1952 aged 74 as the age is spot on for that as well...mind you im like a dog with a bone with my research...i wont give up until i have it sorted lol

lyn

if this Lily wheeler is correct it could mean she didn't remarry. Or couldn't remarry as no trace of a divorce

 

[Astoness]

thats right jane as i said earlier i think that after all this research my advise would be to order the 2 death certs as they may give you the information you need to confirm things as well as if anyone was present at death and who the informant of the death was...the ref you need for the death cert of lily who died in 1952 is 9c 546

lyn

 

[Alberta]

Jane, Florence L Wheeler to William B Tuzzio , Birmingham,june qtr 1933 . 6d 1177

 

[Astoness]

hi Lyn

not got Florence's marriage certificate just the index reference. On Ellen's in 1929 I think it reads as church metal worker

oh sorry jane its just that earlier on you said that on florences marr cert it did not say that george was deceased so i assumed you had the cert...

does it say father deceased on ellens marr cert

lyn

 

[pjmburns]

thats right jane as i said earlier i think that after all this research my advise would be to order the 2 death certs as they may give you the information you need to confirm things as well as if anyone was present at death and who the informant of the death was...the ref you need for the death cert of lily who died in 1952 is 9c 546

lyn

I agree Lyn - death certificates could prove very helpful here. I too like to get my teeth into a mystery - keep going until I get answers. I am puzzled by the "church metal worker" for George's occupation. Wonder if Jane could post a photo of the image in case it refers to his work at Rowton? I also wondered about George's will - if I am correct probate just grants the estate to the administrator and it might be interesting to see who he left things to. (Wills at https://www.gov.uk/search-will-probate)

Janice

 

[Astoness]

morning janice yes church metal worker sounds interesting...on the 1911 george is a brass dresser...on the 1901 i have him living in parliament st with lily cant quite make out his occ on that but its something tool trade..also noted on the 1901 that georges parents and siblings are living next door to him and lily one of georges brothers henry is a soldier with the 1st royal welsh fusilers so his army records maybe on ancestry if that would be of interest to jane

lyn

 

[Alberta]

The occupation in the 1901 is Filer Edge tool trade.
the Edge tool trade had their own union 1911 in Chattaway street, 1923 ,284 Nechells park Road.

 

[pjmburns]

George is described as a Brass Dresser on Eva's baptism record at St Stephen's 4 April 1909. The address on there is 5 back of 122 Tower Street.
On Florence's at the same church on 4 Sep 1901 he is a "filer" and I can't decipher the address apart from 2 back of......

Janice

 

[JaneMTaylor]

Hi everyone,
Just received George's death certificate. This shows that he died at Selly Oak Hospital but resided at 145 Alcester Street (Rowton House). It also describes his occupation as a Brass Dresser. This fits with other descriptions over the years, on the 1911 census it also states brass dresser, but also says that this is for 'Naval Brass Founder Worker' This just leaves his occupation on his marriage certificate as a query. I think it says 'Church Metal Worker'

Also on the marriage certificate it states that Ellen was residing at 99 Grantham Road, but I cannot find any other details to see why she was living there.

Have also noticed on George's death certificate it states that the informant was Florence Wheeler, Daughter. This means that they must have remained in touch despite going into the home in 1912. It also says that Florence was living at 18 Dymoke Street, but again no trace on this either. When I have cross referenced the details I have so far, I can also see that Florence was a witness to Ellen's marriage in 1929, so further proof that they were still in contact with each other.

Have ordered some other family death certificates to see if this will help (Lily DOD 1958 / Florence DOD 1958 / Doris DOD 1926)

Help needed - I cannot get the copy document to upload,any advice?

Many thanks,

Jane

 

[pjmburns]

What format is the document in? I am not sure but this might make a difference.

I think that Dymoke Street and Dymock Street might be the same?
Also that Ellen (or Helen - my Dad had a cousin known as Nell and it was only when her first grandaughter was given the name Helen that we found out Nell was really a Helen) lived in Grantham Road earlier and may just have moved to a different house. Onte electoral roll for just after she got married there are several different names at 99 so perhaps it took in lodgers?

Janice

 

[JaneMTaylor]

Hi Janice
the docs are in WORD.
yes, I also think that Dymock and Dymoke are the same. Still having trouble getting a trace for Florence at the address.

I always new my nan as Ellen. I think she as called Nell by close older friends. It was only on starting family tree that I have found out that Helen has been used.

Jane

 

[MWS]

You need to scan your documents (certificates) as a jpeg (probably the easiest) and they should upload.

 

[MWS]

And as the children seemed to be in touch with their father maybe it was Lily who abandoned the family and the story that she died was to hide the fact.

(This seemed to be the case on another recent query).

 

[JaneMTaylor]

Hi Everyone,

Hoping that I can now upload documents 4 in total.

Ellen Wheeler (my nan) marriage certificate
This shows her home address as 99 Grantham Road - not sure why here?
This shows her fathers occupation - Church Metal Worker?
This shows that her sister Florence was a witness

George Frederick Wheeler - death certficate
This shows the address as 145 Alcester Street (AKA Rowton House) - I cannot trace if he was working there or an inmate
This shows that his daughter Florence was the informant
This shows that his daughter Florence was living at 18 Dymoke / Dymock Street - but I also have an address of 77a Dymoke / Dymock Street

Doris Wheeler - death certificate
This shows that her father George was the informant

Florence Wheeler - death certificate
This shows her husband William as the informant

The above leads me to believe that the daughters were still in touch with each other and their father despite being put in St Josephs Home. I do not think that they had any further contact with their mother Lily. I did ask for a copy of the death certificate (Dec 1952, but have been advised that the spouse does not match. I have another possibility for her death in Dec 1935, Birmingham 6d/ page 400 - not sure if to try, but really want to get to the bottom of this mystery.

Many thanks,

Jane

 

[MWS]

The 1935 death seems a possibility, the age is right.

Hopefully you'll be able to work it out, it's a very frustrating hobby at times.

 

[Astoness]

hello jane and thanks for posting the certs..i will turn them the right way round for you tomorrow...well everything seems to fit which is good news and you have not wasted any money on them...i agree with MWS i would have a go at the 1935 death cert...

lyn

 

[Astoness]

hi jane ive turned the 3 death certs round for you

lyn

 

[JaneMTaylor]

Quick update. The 1935 certificate is no good either, so still no date of death for Lily.

 

[MWS]

That's a shame. Hopefully something will turn up.

 

[JaneMTaylor]

Okay, I'm going to take a shot at resurrecting this query as I am still no further forward in finding out what happened to Lily. I have paid for a number of potential death certificates, but they have all come back with a different spouse, except one (copy attached). Not sure how to investigate this further, so any ideas would be welcome.

There is also the potential of a record in the 1939 census with a Charles Langford Wheeler. I had initially dismissed this as husband / wife or brother / sister, but it may be that it is Lily and they just adopted the Wheeler surname.

This brick wall is going nowhere fast.

Thanks,
Jane

 

[JaneMTaylor]

This is a list of what I have checked so far, plus I have added this query to the Family Tree Forum (FTF)
I have requested a number of different copies of death certs, in the vain hope of getting a 'hit', but so far no luck. These are the ones I have tried;

1913 - Qtr M - Reading - 02c - 435 ----- this shows Lily Wheeler wife of William Wheeler
1923 - Qtr S - Wycombe - 03a -804 ---- this shows Lily Wheeler wife of Thomas George Wheeler
1929 - Qtr J - Rotherham - 09c - 720 --- this shows Lily Wheeler wife of John Wheeler
1935 - Qtr D - Birmingham - 06d - 400 --- this shows Lillie Wheeler wife of Joseph Wheeler
1942 - Qtr M - Basingstoke - 02c - 473 --- this shows Lily Wheeler wife of ??? Wheeler (copy available, but will not let me attach)
1952 - Qtr d - Birmingham - 09c - 546 --- this shows Lily Wheeler wife of Charles Longford Wheeler (from the 1939 census)
1953 - Qtr d - Huddersfield - 02b - 706 --- this shows Lily Wheeler wife of George Henry Wheeler
1975 - Qtr d - Birmingham - 32 - 977 - this shows Lily Wheeler wife of Frankland Wheeler

I also ordered one marriage certificate;

1928 - Qtr D - Birmingham - 06d - 155 - this shows Lily May Wheeler age 18 (wrong age) marrying Leslie John Nicholls

 

[sospiri]

Jane,

For what it's worth, Park Prewett was the main mental hopital for Hampshire up until 1997. though she actually died from coronary thrombosis. So the last time we can locate Lily was on the 1911 Census?

By the way, I've had a quick search of "The Stage" up until 1930 and can't find a suitable Lily Baker or Wheeler performing anywhere.

Maurice

 

[sospiri]

Jane,

Having explored possible Birmingham marriages 1913 to 1933 and the online Birmingham Electoral Rolls for either Lily Wheeler or the possible three marriages that showed, I've drawn a complete blank. Perhaps you might have a better chance of locating her when the 1921 Census appears online in 18 months time.

Maurice

 

[JaneMTaylor]

Hi all,

I have been given a link to the 1930 census which shows the Rising Sun, Talbot Street. https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imagevie...at=35&fh=0&h=2719700&recoff=&ml_rpos=1&hovR=1

The occupants are listed as Fred Madeley, Fanny Madeley, and Lily Wheeler. I am interested in Lily as she is my 1st great grandmother. Has anyone got any ideas on how I can get more information on this, for example DOB to prove the data?
Thanks

 

[pjmburns]

This link is to 1930 electoral roll. It contains no data other than the names of those eligible to vote. The closest info with a dob is the 1939 register but she might have moved by then.

 

[sospiri]

A number of us have checked & double-checked the 1939 Register to no avail. I'm a bit puzzled by that 1935 Electoral Roll though as I checked for a Lily Wheeler and nothing came up there. I'll check it again with Talbot Street as an address.

EDIT: The one at the Rising Sun, 35 Talbot Street, appears at that address only in 1935. My next move was to go through the lot again from 1920 to 1960 to see if I could isolate where she came from, but no real luck. The one married to Charles Langford Wheeler first appears with him at 9 Ivetsy Place, Sparkbrook, and is with him at that address until he dies and beyond.

Then from 1939 onwards there is one with a different Charles Wheeler at various back houses in Brearley Street until after the war, but no others. But they appear as husband and wife on the 1939 Register and Lily was born in 1911. They were married in 4 Qtr 1937 and Lily's maiden name was KWEI, so not likely to be that one at the Rising Sun in 1935.

So the Lily Wheeler at the Rising Sun in 1935 is still a possible, but she doesn't appear on the Electoral Rolls previous to this date or afterwards. That seems odd to be suddenly parachuted in and then out!

But on 23 May 1936 the Birmingham Gazette announced its closure along with 7 others:-

There were no other previous adverts for bar staff from 1930 until closure. There is one other possibility with this presumed barmaid. There are numerous other Lily/Lilian Wheelers with two or even three forenames/initials. This could have been one of those, and the landlord, not knowing that she had other names, merely added her to the Electoral Registration form as plain old Lily. There is just no way of knowing.

Maurice

 

[Astoness]

just jumping in here folks but has anyone checked to see if lily went to live abroad

lyn

 

[JaneMTaylor]

Not checked for any travel as I don't think they had the financial means