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Midland Red Early Days

Re: Hugh Hamilton Gregory.

2010-06-24 11:11:14
[We are almost certain that Hugh Hamilton Gregory (1881 – 1953) was the hitherto elusive "H H Gregory" who was employed as Midland Red motor engineer in November 1905. Here is a brief biography. As usual, corrections, additions and comments are welcome. It would be good to learn more about Hugh Gregory's career. And a picture would be good! :rolleyes:]


Hugh Hamilton Gregory (HHG) was born at Poplar, London, on 27 June 1881. His parents were Alfred John Gregory (AJG) and Jennie Hamilton Gregory née James (JHG).

AJG (c 1860 – 14 July 1927) was born at Studley Park, Kew, Melbourne, Victoria, Australia. He was the son of engineer George Johnston Gregory (born c 1807) and Ann(ie) Gregory. AJG trained as a medical doctor (he was to acquire the qualifications MD, BS and DPH). In 1880 AJG married JHG at St Luke's church, Lower Norwood, Kent. JHG was born about 1859 in Chicago and later became a British subject. By 1881 they were living with AJG's parents (also older sister Florence A Gregory and younger brother photographer Frederick Gregory) at 13 Clifton Road, Deptford, Kent.

By
census night (5 April) 1891, HHG and his parents were living at 184 Knights Hill, Norwood, London. Later that year the family moved to Cape Town, Cape Colony (Cape of Good Hope), South Africa. AJG was involved in the administration of the 1891 Cape Colony census, and was registered in Cape Colony as a doctor in 1892. In July 1895 George Turner MB MRCS LRCP (c 1845 - 12 March 1915) was appointed Medical Officer of Health (MOH) for Cape Colony, and soon afterwards AJG was appointed his assistant. After Turner became MOH for Transvaal in 1900, AJG was formally promoted to MOH for Cape Colony. By this time he had become very prominent in Cape Colony affairs. Van Heyningen (1989) describes him as "the most influential medical figure at the Cape until Union in 1910". He continued in his position until perhaps 1913, and moved back to Britain some time after retirement. He died at Metcalfe's Royal Hydro, Richmond, Surrey. Further information about AJG's work in Cape Colony can be found in the 1906 and 1989 references (see "Sources" below).

HHG attended South Africa College, Cape Town, and matriculated in 1899. On 9 October of that year he entered St Johns College, Cambridge University, where he remained for eight terms, leaving in 1902 apparently without a degree. He qualified as a mechanical engineer, and in November 1905 he was employed by the fledgling Midland Red as Engineer, replacing George Pollard who had moved on to the London Motor Omnibus Co Ltd as Second Engineer. By the end of 1907 Midland Red had decided to dispense with motor buses, and probably in the early part of 1908 HHG left Midland Red for a position with the Royal Automobile Club (RAC). By 1910 he was lodging at 29 Cleveland Road, Barnes, London. In the 1911 census HHG described himself as "Technical Advisor to the Secretary of RAC". In this role he registered several patents in 1910-1914 for "motor vehicle windscreens", "fuel consumption measuring device" and "motor vehicle trailers". By 1912 he was Head of the Technical Department of RAC, and was an associate member of the Institute of Mechanical Engineers. In the first quarter of 1913 he married Ruth Gladys Shoyer (born at Clapham Junction second quarter 1894) at Richmond, Surrey. His wife was the eldest child of Post Office telegraph operator Richard Howell Shoyer (born c 1871) and Ruth Alice Shoyer n
ée Cowper (b c 1873). Possible offspring include: John H Gregory (born fourth quarter 1913 at Richmond, Surrey); Mary R Gregory (born third quarter 1915 at Richmond, Surrey); Barbara A Gregory (born first quarter 1920 at Lewes, East Sussex); Julian B Gregory (born second quarter 1921 at Reigate, Surrey). By 1914 the family were living at "Muizenberg", 20 (?) Gerard Road, Barnes. [Muizenberg, now a beach-side suburb of greater Cape Town, was a holiday town for the Cape Colony élite in the late 19th and early 20th centuries; AJG and JHG had owned a holiday home there.] Early in World War 1, HHG became involved in the technical organisation of Red Cross hospitals and ambulances. By January 1916 he was appointed advisory officer to the Board of Customs and Excise in relation to tariffs on motor car imports, though he remained Head of the RAC Technical Department. At this time it was said of him in the press: "Nobody has a more complete and thorough knowledge of the motor industry from the inside".

We hear nothing about HHG's later life and career until his death in the second quarter of 1953 at Winchester, Hampshire.

Sources:

Cape of Good Hope. Report of the Select Committee on the Contagious Diseases Act. Cape Town: Cape Times Ltd, 1906.
The Straits Times (4 January 1916).
[Peter Hardy]. Fleet History PD2. The Birmingham and Midland Motor Omnibus Company Limited. Part I 1904-1933. London: PSV Circle and Omnibus Society, 1961.
E B van Heyningen. "Agents of Empire: The Medical Profession in the Cape Colony 1880-1910". Medical History. Volume 33 (pp 450-471). 1989.
Lloyd's research in British censuses, registers, etc. [Thanks Lloyd for that painstaking work! :)]
Heather Vallance's research in Cape Town records and elsewhere. Her Sarah Ann Smith website is well worth a visit: it contains a page on AJG. It appears that Sarah Ann Smith's brother Hugh Smith (who was living in Poplar by 1882) was HHG's godfather. [Thanks Heather for your kind (and continuing) assistance! :)]

I know this post was a long time ago, but if you're still interested in Hugh Hamilton Gregory please get in touch. He was my grandfather :)
 
Re: Hugh Hamilton Gregory.

Hi, I know this is a bit cheeky, but have you a photo at all of Hugh Hamilton Gregory that you would be willing to share please ? I am one of the previously mentioned Wythall researchers on early Midland Red and having spent 'EONs' on these early gents, are now looking for suitable pictures to illustrate what was going on around this time. Thank you
 
Rose
All the images were lost after action that was taken after some hacking a few years ago (this is noted on the front page of the forum). Many of them have been replaced, and we are trying to replace more, but it is a a lot of work. If you could point us to the particular post(s) in question (there are 1400 on this thread) then possibly we could do something about them .
 
Re: Women Bus Drivers (Again!)

Hi i know the post about Doreen Barnett was awhile ago but I've only just come across it
the woman in the video is neither Doreen or her daughter i can confirm this as I'm one of Doreens granddaughters
Laurie Lythgoe
 
I have just come across this news item in Bus and Coach Magazine


Johnsons Coach & Bus Travel has relaunched its X20 bus service with three new Enviro400 double-decks in an order worth more than £600,000.



The X20 route from Stratford-upon-Avon to Birmingham was started by Johnsons 100 years ago with a horse and cart transporting goods. In the 1920s they began moving fare-paying passengers and 10,000 commuter journeys are now made on the route every month

Surely the X20 is the successor to the 150 Birmingham to Stratford operated by Midland Red and Stratford Blue. Can anyone throw any light on this claim?
 
Johnson's first motor bus, a 1922 Garner, was signwritten "Birmingham - Stratford - Warwick - Leamington", and until the 1930 road traffic act there was no licensing to stop companies competing over the same route.

Johnsons 1922 Garner.jpg
 
Johnson's first motor bus, a 1922 Garner, was signwritten "Birmingham - Stratford - Warwick - Leamington", and until the 1930 road traffic act there was no licensing to stop companies competing over the same route.

Thanks Lloyd. I have always been impressed by Johnson's modern buses and coaches when I have travelled on them.
 
hi everyone I'm looking for help the picture I have posted is from 1955 and my first home that's me mom and me standing at the back of our bus, my mom assures me it was a midland red as it was dark red with midland red down the sides before me mom and dad painted it blue (said it looked more homely) I know it's not much to go on but I'd love to know the make and model so I can try and find a picture of what I lived in, in my early years thank you, Bob
 

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Yes definately a Midland Red, chassis was their own make (assembled at Bearwood Garage in those days) which used the name "SOS", the meaning of which is unclear, and the body is to their design but could have been built by one af several coachbuilding companies. Without knowing a registration number, or seeing the front, it is difficult to pinpoint the exact model but I would think it was one of the early 1930s "ON" models, like the one illustrated below. When disposed of they were £5 without engine & gearbox, or £25 to drive away.
 

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there you go bob i had a feeling that lloyd would know and what a great photo to go with the info...thanks lloyd:)

lyn
 
Lloyd you've just made my day thank you so much and thanks Lyn, my moms birthday today (83) so we all went out for a meal can't wait to show her this pic. and Lloyd your pretty much spot on my dad paid £28 for the bus and drove it on the site in 1954 where we lived then in Grosvener road Aston once again thank you, Bob
 
oh im so pleased for you all bob...that old bus must have meant a lot to your family..if i were you i would print that photo off and frame it for your mom...just a thought:)

lyn
 
sorry about putting that in twice just got so excited I'm proud of me mom and dad and the fact I started off in a bus. I have just called my sister to have a look to show mom that photo can't say thank you enough Bob
 
bob dont worry about the double post i can delete one of them.. i totally understand how excited we can get when finding a photo that means so much..i am still getting over finding one i was after for years and i found it 5 years ago..still brings a tear to the eye even now but i have it framed and hanging on the wall..have to say i think its wonderful how your parents adapted that bus...thats what i call true brummie grit...bit late but best wishes to your mom on her birthday

lyn
 
If only I had had £28 in 1954. Oh and somewhere to park the bus. And a driving licence, I was only 10 at the time. I saw many of those single deckers but not sure if I ever rode on one. I remember the pre-war FEDDs, the double deckers, they were on all our local services before the SHA double deckers came in about that time.
 
I can remember sometimes riding in them on my way home from Handsworth Tech around 1950. I used to get a No 5 tram from Soho Rd and wait at a bus stop in Alma St. When we saw one coming up the hill from Summer Lane we were embarrassed at having to get on an old 'boneshaker' and not a modern bus .... but you're like that when you're young !
 
hi David Oldmohawk, my dad drove that bus onto a site in Grosvener road Aston it cost 8s 1d rent per week and we lived in it for three happy years . Hi Lloyd I've put two pictures in of my uncles bus that was next door to us again would you have any idea of what it was many thanks Bob
 

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No sorry, its only a short bus and not one I recognise - certainly not Midland Red. Its of a type called 'normal control' where the driver sat behind, rather than alongside, the engine so is possibly from a small country operator who didn't need large buses. I've overlaid the two photos to give a better idea of the bus's size, but need more visible to be able to identify it.

ODD caravan 3.jpg
 
Re: Hugh Hamilton Gregory.



I know this post was a long time ago, but if you're still interested in Hugh Hamilton Gregory please get in touch. He was my grandfather :)
HHG was also my grandfather. HHG separated from his wife and their daughters went with her while his only son Julian lived with him. Julian was a Chartered Mechanical Engineer and I am a Chartered Civil Engineer (ex Aston Uni) so engineering is in the blood. Another Julian Gregory was born in Birmingham just two months ago and is HHG's great great grandson. HHG in later years lived in Hampshire next door to my parents and had dogs, foxes and badgers in his house - they went in and out thro' the dog flap. I do have a photo of him as an old man if anyone wants a copy - not sure how well it will scan. I also have the original USA patent docs for his single wheel trailer dated 21/08/1917 and I wondered if the buses ever pulled these trailers. I know in rural Hampshire in the war the buses were powered by gas and I believe towed trailers ( albeit not single wheel ones). Incidentally I also have an original order for and brochures for these single wheel trailers. HHG appeared to be quite good at marketing and also took out patents around the world. Apparently HG was not easy to work with which was said about his father Alfred and probably the next two generations as well!! HHG's sofa is currently in Birmingham complete with badger claw marks in its leather. I am intrigued who JulesB is!!
 
Hugh, if you look at the buses thread you will see references to the gas trailers uses in Birmingham during WW2. They were not successful and were usually limited to one route only and that only when passenger traffic was the greatest.
 
HHG was also my grandfather. HHG separated from his wife and their daughters went with her while his only son Julian lived with him. Julian was a Chartered Mechanical Engineer and I am a Chartered Civil Engineer (ex Aston Uni) so engineering is in the blood. Another Julian Gregory was born in Birmingham just two months ago and is HHG's great great grandson. HHG in later years lived in Hampshire next door to my parents and had dogs, foxes and badgers in his house - they went in and out thro' the dog flap. I do have a photo of him as an old man if anyone wants a copy - not sure how well it will scan. I also have the original USA patent docs for his single wheel trailer dated 21/08/1917 and I wondered if the buses ever pulled these trailers. I know in rural Hampshire in the war the buses were powered by gas and I believe towed trailers ( albeit not single wheel ones). Incidentally I also have an original order for and brochures for these single wheel trailers. HHG appeared to be quite good at marketing and also took out patents around the world. Apparently HG was not easy to work with which was said about his father Alfred and probably the next two generations as well!! HHG's sofa is currently in Birmingham complete with badger claw marks in its leather. I am intrigued who JulesB is!!
I am interested to discover your research into the GREGORY family. I believe that George Johnson Gregory's wife, Ann(e/ie), was the daughter of John Elliott and Mary (nee Brown), of Croydon (who were my 3x-Gt-grandparents). I'm researching John and Mary Elliott's descendants, and would be interested to know some more about the Gregory line, to confirm, and add to my own research.

George Johnson Gregory and Anne Elliott married on 11th October 1843, at St John the Baptist, Croydon. A transcription of the marriage register gives their fathers' names as 'James Gregory' and 'John Elliott' (IGI).

John Elliott and Mary Brown married at St Mary, Newington, Surrey, on 21st April 1819 (Parish reg/IGI), and had 7 children. Anne was their second child, christened on 6th November 1822, at St John the Babtist, Croydon (IGI).

John and Mary Elliott's youngest child (my 2x-Gt-grandfather), Joseph John Elliott, was born on 14th October 1835, at Thornton Heath. Aged 16, he is said to have set sail for Australia, together with "his married sister and brother-in-law" (who I assume were Anne and George Gregory). JJE is said to have sailed "in search of gold".

After returning to England, Joseph John Elliott (in partnership with his future brother-in-law, Edmund Fry) was the founder of the photography firm, "Elliott and Fry". He married Lucy Elizabeth Fry in 1864. See; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elliott_&_Fry & https://www.photohistory-sussex.co.uk/FryClarence.htm
 
2010-04-05 09:45:06

The Midland Red SOS QC "Queen Charabanc" 1927-1928.
[Corrections, additions and comments welcome.]

Only one batch of nineteen QCs was manufactured (in the second half of 1927 and early 1928). The "prototype" rolled off the production line in about July 1927 and was registered HA3666 (fleet number A667). Fourteen went to Midland Red and five to Trent Motor Traction Co Ltd (TMT). Nineteen suitable 30-seat open touring coach bodies (C60-78) were made (to Shire’s design under patent number 294,381) by Midland Red at Carlyle Works.

The five 1927 TMT QCs were given fleet numbers 600-604 and registered CH6256-6260. The chassis numbers were 501, 504, 510-512 and the bodies C66-70 (I don't know the exact correspondence between fleet, chassis and body numbers). Here are pictures of CH6256 (at the Lands End Hotel, Cornwall; you have to scroll down to find it - anyone know how to link directly to the picture?) and CH6259 (at the Clarendon Hotel, Oxford). Does anyone know the later history of the TMT QCs?

The fourteen Midland Red QCs were registered HA3666-3679. The other numbers were (respectively): fleet A667, A703, A713, A722, A724, A721, A732, A730, A733-734, A782, A780, A781, A735; chassis 390, 490, 505, 508, 514, 513, 516, 515, 523, 527-528, 522, 525-526; body C60-65, C71-74, C78, C76-77, C75. HA3666-3675 and HA3679 were made in 1927, the other three in 1928. HA3677-3678 (A780-781) were sold on immediately in 1928 to Northern General Transport Co Ltd (NGT) without entering service with Midland Red; fleet numbers A780-781 were re-assigned (to QL HA3719 and QLC HA4824 respectively). HA3667, HA3670, HA3675 and HA3679 followed in 1935. The remaining Midland Red coaches were withdrawn in 1935 and broken up in 1936-1937. Does anyone know the fleet numbers, registrations and later history of the NGT QCs?

Midland Red Volume 1 has pictures of HA3667 (pages 67-68), HA3669 (page 157) and HA3675 (page 68). Also on page 68 is a picture of the attractive BMMO "crest" that first appeared on the QC and continued to be used by Midland Red for many years).
 
Thanks for the information
My grandfather, Reginald Harry Davies, was a Midland Red bus driver in the 1920's and I attach a photo of my father and his brother stand in front of what was probably my grandfather's bus, registration HA3669. The date 1927 would tie in with the age of my father and brother. I also have some road safety medals awarded to my grandfather from that ear.132214
 
when i was apprenice one job was making the switch boxes for bmmo most of the electrics were supply'd by simms.
 
are harpers buses still around? i remember catching one from Burntwood to cars lane. every morning,it was a right boneshaker. many a time it broke down.so they put a coach on that route.it too was a wreck.you could see the road through the floor
 
Harper Brothers were acquired by Midland Red on 7/9/74. Midland Red had lost all its Birmingham and surrounding areas routes to the WMPTE so the acquisition gave it some strength north of the PTE area. Some of the older buses did not operate with the Red.
 
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I remember seeing a Harpers double decker (Fleetline or Atlantic) in Birmingham lower Bull Street, with the radiator cover at the nearside rear missing with the fan chain exposed. I looked around for a police officer to report it as a public safety risk but there was none around
 
A bus shelter serving Midland Red, which, I think was in Wolverhampton.
 

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